Why the difference in treatment between CHT's 18" drivers and the Subm's 15" drivers?

[diamonddelts]

This is something I've been pondering for a while. Why is there such a difference in treatment between the CHT 18" Emminence drivers and the Submersive's 15" Emminence drivers. Both drivers are made by the same company. So why is the Submersive praised for it's ability to go low(with the help of a buttload of eq) and the CHT is always questioned on it's ability to go low because it uses drivers from Emminence which is a pro driver company.

Am I missing something here?

[BobDolez]

This is something I've been pondering for a while. Why is there such a difference in treatment between the CHT 18" Emminence drivers and the Submersive's 15" Emminence drivers. Both drivers are made by the same company. So why is the Submersive praised for it's ability to go low(with the help of a buttload of eq) and the CHT is always questioned on it's ability to go low because it uses drivers from Emminence which is a pro driver company.

Am I missing something here?

From what I can see, I believe it sometimes a person's bias toward a given company for one reason or another. Other times, it can be the sheeple effect. Often a biased person will argue the strong point of their favorite product and not make it a level playing field.

You'll pay 2200ish for a single Submersive, or you can get two VS-18.1s or nearly 2 of the 18.2s with amplification. You get more power and DSP for the dual opposed 15s Submersive and a much smaller footprint, but its up to the individual to determine which qualities they value in their purchase. To push one's own personal preferences to others doesn't really help... we have enough sheeple in the world. To inform others of attributes and how they they may impact a product's performance and the person's buying decision is a good thing however.

Most pro drivers are not built for low end. They are made to product high spls on the 99% of low bass most music has. This is why "most" are not good for HT use when lower frequencies are wanted. As both Mr. Seaton and Mr. Chase realize this, their drivers are made custom for their specific application. To blather on about pro drivers and inability to go low in the context of either of these companies and their custom drivers doesn't speak very highly of the research ability of the source...unless it is for another reason :peeping:

[diamonddelts]

From what I can see, I believe it sometimes a person's bias toward a given company for one reason or another. Other times, it can be the sheeple effect. Often a biased person will argue the strong point of their favorite product and not make it a level playing field.

You'll pay 2200ish for a single Submersive, or you can get two VS-18.1s or nearly 2 of the 18.2s with amplification. You get more power and DSP for the dual opposed 15s Submersive and a much smaller footprint, but its up to the individual to determine which qualities they value in their purchase. To push one's own personal preferences to others doesn't really help... we have enough sheeple in the world. To inform others of attributes and how they they may impact a product's performance and the person's buying decision is a good thing however.

Most pro drivers are not built for low end. They are made to product high spls on the 99% of low bass most music has. This is why "most" are not good for HT use when lower frequencies are wanted. As both Mr. Seaton and Mr. Chase realize this, their drivers are made custom for their specific application. To blather on about pro drivers and inability to go low in the context of either of these companies and their custom drivers doesn't speak very highly of the research ability of the source...unless it is for another reason :peeping:

Great post with very good points. As you stated in your aforementioned post both CHT and Seaton's drivers are custom Emminence drivers. Not to be confused with their pro brethren from the same company. So I guess I don't understand why the mind boggling scrutiny on CHT's custom Emminence drivers but no one ever asked about for measurements on Seaton's Emminence drivers.

But you already hit the nail on the head. I guess some people have an axe to grind so they glaze over CHT's advantages while simultaneously praising Seatons drivers for what they do well. I just wish everyone could hear a pair of properly powered 18.2's before they pass judgment on CHT products.

[carp]

I've never seen much praise for the Submersive drivers themselves, just praise for the complete sub. I see more people ripping the Submersive for being expensive (not by people that have heard one, haha), but the 2400 watt amp costs 1200 bucks all by itself and that eats of a huge chunk of the overall price of the sub. It's proven to be a VERY dependable amp and runs dead quiet with a ton of power and the convenience of an all in one package.

Another part of the price - no HPF but at the same time I can't get them to make a bad sound. When they are at their limits they simply just don't get any louder no matter how many db's I increase after they stop getting louder but there is no sounds that would clue me in that they are indeed at their limits, if you know what I mean.

I've heard a lot of high output subs in the past year or so, and none of them sound as good and clean to me as the Submersive, and it sounds better at lower volumes too.

Like you say they are expensive, but I recommend you guys listen to one before you make up your mind about them.

[diamonddelts]

I've never seen much praise for the Submersive drivers themselves, just praise for the complete sub. I see more people ripping the Submersive for being expensive (not by people that have heard one, haha), but the 2400 watt amp costs 1200 bucks all by itself and that eats of a huge chunk of the overall price of the sub. It's proven to be a VERY dependable amp and runs dead quiet with a ton of power and the convenience of an all in one package.

Another part of the price - no HPF but at the same time I can't get them to make a bad sound. When they are at their limits they simply just don't get any louder no matter how many db's I increase after they stop getting louder but there is no sounds that would clue me in that they are indeed at their limits, if you know what I mean.

I've heard a lot of high output subs in the past year or so, and none of them sound as good and clean to me as the Submersive, and it sounds better at lower volumes too.

Like you say they are expensive, but I recommend you guys listen to one before you make up your mind about them.

I am not questioning the Submersive nor those who choose to pay premium coin for it. My question is why CHT subs are questioned on the ability to go low due to the fact that they use Emminence drivers while one of the finest ID subs in the game which is known for it's depth of bass also uses Emminence drivers. My point is obviously Emminence drivers can go since the Submersive uses them and it excells at quality low bass.

So why is Emminence seen as a black eye when CHT subs uses them. I am saying this rhetorically now since this question has been addressed.

[BobDolez]

Like you say they are expensive, but I recommend you guys listen to one before you make up your mind about them.

You make it sound as if I don't like the sub. That is far from the truth.

I think its a great sub package from everything I've read. Unfortunately, it wasn't a good fit for me and my needs.

Most arguments I see starting on various boards is from people misinterpreting someones choice as meaning they don't like the subs they didn't choose. I weighed out the needs I had and scored the available offerings accordingly.

Some of my needs

• under 2k (most important factor to me)
• prefer ported, since they are more efficient (less amplification needed)
  This translates to less draw from the outlet... unless we go digital but that raises the price.
  
  
• good sound quality (doesn't have to be perfect)
• good SPL (doesn't have to be the loudest)
• good extention (under 20Hz, but doesn't have to go the lowest)
• etc...

Looking through the list, the Subm gets good marks, but it is out of budget.

If i required a smaller form factor and had more money to spend, I probably would've chosen a different product.

[sbdman]

I see it as the main reason the Eminence used by CHT is trashed is because the company is owned by Craig. I think there is a core group who frequent AVS who are committed to trash his history as a sub tester who put a rating on the best subs at the time, and added MFW (also Eminence) to his list in a place that even with asterisks set him up to be a fall guy.

Then to come up with his own design at a price that was unmatched at that performance, made the established community fully turn against him at every chance they could attack.

It's proven that the design can perform well into the subsonic range. It seems to perform great with just being equalized by the average receiver, and not need fancy DSP, or post EQ in a typical room.

I believe it's not the best performing subs, but it is the best performing sub system delivered at it's price. And with careful setup and multiples can go as low as you want.

I hate to ask, but respectfully, what could have been better than 6 of these efficient drivers at their price? :peeping: I'll hazard a guess - ported?

[carp]

You make it sound as if I don't like the sub. That is far from the truth.

I think its a great sub package from everything I've read. Unfortunately, it wasn't a good fit for me and my needs.

Most arguments I see starting on various boards is from people misinterpreting someones choice as meaning they don't like the subs they didn't choose. I weighed out the needs I had and scored the available offerings accordingly.

Some of my needs

• under 2k (most important factor to me)
• prefer ported, since they are more efficient (less amplification needed)
  This translates to less draw from the outlet... unless we go digital but that raises the price.
  
  
• good sound quality (doesn't have to be perfect)
• good SPL (doesn't have to be the loudest)
• good extention (under 20Hz, but doesn't have to go the lowest)
• etc...

Looking through the list, the Subm gets good marks, but it is out of budget.

If i required a smaller form factor and had more money to spend, I probably would've chosen a different product.

Gotcha. Hey, I understand not wanting to spend that much. I never would have believed I would end up with such expensive subs!!

I'm glad there are a lot of options out there for people, the more the better.