2.1 receiver or integrated amp with real bass management?

[Chane M&C]

Does anyone know of an inexpensive 2.1 receiver or integrated amp that has true bass management (variable high pass and low pass frequencies, gain control for low pass)?

Also, does anyone know if the gizmo comes with a remote?

Thanks

[Jason]

How about the Outlaw

[mojave]

The Outlaw Audio RR2150 is a 2.1 receiver with bass management and a remote.

Edit: Had to answer the phone and was too late on the response!

[Chane M&C]

I guess "inexpensive" is a relative term. :P

Is this the only offering in the market? It seems like this would have been easy to do on the cheap given that all the pieces are already in place even with the garden variety $400 7.1 receivers.

[Jason]

IIRC this guy was first introduced before 7 channel AVR's were so ubiquitous. I have never heard that unit, nor any Outlaw product, but I know they build solid products. I'm sure it would outperform an HT AVR of similar price point.

[mojave]

If you want inexpensive, then just buy a 7.1 channel receiver and use it with just two channels and the bass management.

[Eric D]

Or for really inexpensive, find a used Dolby Prologic receiver with bass management! :woo:

[jvgillow]

I got a Denon AVR-589 for my 2.1 needs. Sure it doesn't have analog-domain bass management like the Outlaw receiver, but I don't have any disc players with expensive enough DACs to really warrant that premium feature. Plus it has Audyssey and dynamic EQ which are fun to try out even if you don't end up using them for 2ch music. I just leave mine in "stereo" mode all the time and so the center/surround outputs are inactive.

[Sparky14]

Or for really inexpensive, find a used Dolby Prologic receiver with bass management! :woo:

There ya go! I picked up a Yamaha receiver from a garage sale for $5 for just this reason.

[dvenardos]

IIRC this guy was first introduced before 7 channel AVR's were so ubiquitous. I have never heard that unit, nor any Outlaw product, but I know they build solid products. I'm sure it would outperform an HT AVR of similar price point.

Actually the Outlaw receiver was introduced as a retro receiver, the last of its breed and still, I believe, the only integrated with analog bass management. The problem is most bass management is digital, but integrateds are analog so in order to apply bass management you have to do an ADA conversion which kind of defeats the purpose of the integrated in the first place.

[Chane M&C]

Actually the Outlaw receiver was introduced as a retro receiver, the last of its breed and still, I believe, the only integrated with analog bass management. The problem is most bass management is digital, but integrateds are analog so in order to apply bass management you have to do an ADA conversion which kind of defeats the purpose of the integrated in the first place.

So the requirements I am trying to solve (which BTW, would seem common across those who like 2.1 systems) is as follows:
- electronic high pass crossover (variable crossover point would be bonus, double bonus for selectable slope)
- gain control for the sub out (bonus for 24db/octave crossover. 12db/octave seems not so useful as that is common with most subs in the market anyway).
- remote control for system volume

Seems simple enough, eh? Most $300 av receivers do this now digitally though sadly, components at this pricepoint can leave a lot to be desired. And the Gizmo at a hundred and change does about half of this in analog.

I guess what surprises me is this.. lots of great monitors are in the market right now. Most of the people here and the other enthusiast forums seems to own a subwoofer. How are folks doing this integration in 2.1? Are you all buying AV receivers to do this? It seems like lots of wasted dough on amps that don't get used. Or are people not bothering filtering out bass from their monitors? Or worse, are you using passive high pass filters?

Car audio had these issues solved 25-30 years ago. It's surprising that home audio have such few options to do this right.

[sbisheff]

Well it's not exactly my definition of cheap, but the Parasound 2100 should do the trick: http://parasound.com/nc/2100.php

Can add to an existing surround system to upgrade analog 2 channel sound
• Connect your 2 channel analog sources to the Model 2100 instead of to your surround receiver
• Connects to surround receiver’s L, R, Sub line out jacks & to power amp’s input jacks
• Blends seamlessly into surround system, automatic pass-through when turned off
• Bypass input can be selected by remote
• Creates a mono sub channel output for 2 channel analog sources
• Analog bass management, low pass filter, adjustable 20 Hz - 140 Hz
• Separate output jacks for full range (large speakers), 80 Hz high pass filtered (small speakers)

[Jason]

I know there are many advanced head units for cars that can do many of the things you mentioned, but AFAIK they are all digital.

I have a 2.1 system that I just added a new sub. Right now I'm going from pre->powered sub->main amp. There is an analog high pass in the sub amp fixed at 80 hz, 12 db slope. However, I am not satisfied with the crossover, and will build a custom passive high pass. Not only will this be much cleaner sound, I will also lower my x-over point to somewhere in the 50-60 cycle range. I don't have any problems with a well designed passive x-over.

[Chane M&C]

I know there are many advanced head units for cars that can do many of the things you mentioned, but AFAIK they are all digital.

You can buy a high current Rockford Fosgate 4 channel amp that has built in variable crossovers for less than $300 I think. And that is a higher end brand.

I have a 2.1 system that I just added a new sub. Right now I'm going from pre->powered sub->main amp. There is an analog high pass in the sub amp fixed at 80 hz, 12 db slope. However, I am not satisfied with the crossover, and will build a custom passive high pass. Not only will this be much cleaner sound, I will also lower my x-over point to somewhere in the 50-60 cycle range. I don't have any problems with a well designed passive x-over.

Okay, I know squat about this stuff so take what I say with a grain as my facts may be mixed up.

Forever ago, I read that passive crossovers:
- typically have some sort of phase shift. In some designs, the shift would be roughly 90degrees with a 6db/oct network, about 180 degrees with a 12db/oct nework.
- Eat up power. The steeper the slope, the more power..
- The parts to do it well are expensive. And to change from one crossover frequency to another requires that you build a new crossover
- Passive networks do something funky (that's a technical term) to the impedance of the system. In some systems, Zobel networks can be employed to set the impedance to a fix point.

For these reasons, it seems impractical to build a passive network.

Edit: Wow, I just read this part of your response.

I will also lower my x-over point to somewhere in the 50-60 cycle range. I don't have any problems with a well designed passive x-over.

If memory serves, the parts to do a 2nd order x-over lower than 100hz are pretty expensive (you need a pretty big coil to do that). And you need two - one for each channel.

[mojave]

Here are the ways I do 2.1:

At home I use a DCX2496 for bass management. My X-Fi Elite soundcard sends the analog out directly to my amp using a 24 dB/octave crossover at the frequency I set it to. It also sends a simultaneous digital PCM stereo signal to the DCX2496. The bass stays in the digital domain for crossovers, etc. and then is sent to my subwoofers. The volume is attenuated digitally before output so the analog and digital output track the volume simultaneously. I can use my remote to control the volume, etc.

At work I have ELT525 monitors. I was using the Gizmo, but my dad is borrowing it right now. I currently use my soundcard to send the stereo signal out of two sets of outputs. One set goes to my Onix SP3 amp and the other to my subwoofer. I use the natural rolloff of the ELT525 and match it using the crossover on the sub.

I think the DacMan has digital output so it could be connected to a DCX2496 or similar for a two channel solution. However, I'm not sure if the DacMan will attenuate the volume of the digital output in sync with the analog output.