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  • SOME GOOD READING ABOUT TWEETERS

    Hello to all,
    I just wanted to post this thread to show the benefits of different tweeters, dome, planar, folded and true ribbons. I in no way have any intention to to cause any negatives or positives for either configurations just info about tweeters and why I am excited about the A5 and it's price point with the planar magnetic tweeters and what some other tweeters actually cost.
    Hi Guys,

    I have to share this with you… I have extensive experience with different diaphragm materials and have evaluated at least a half dozen Be dome tweeters. From pure Be to various composite materials such as BeCu2 (Copper Beryllium alloy) and AlBeMet (Aluminum Beryllium alloy). I have even evaluated the different forming mechanisms from vapor deposited to film.

    Back in Sept 2009 (prior to the development of our NrT) we started consulting with Brush Wellman in an effort to develop our own vapor deposited pure Be dome diaphragm (just the dome itself) to retrofit the Sierra-1 tweeter. At that same time, we also started working with a Japanese company (TSK) to develop our very own Be dome tweeter. I believe the Japanese were the first to ever use Be in a transducer (an old Yamaha speaker although it could have been Pioneer)

    After spending so much time evaluating, the only Be dome that offered a measurable advantage over a Titanium dome was vapor deposited pure Be. The advantage being that due to the very high stiffness to mass ratio, the resonance frequency of the dome was pushed into the 30 kHz range and out of human audibility. This meant that we now have a dome tweeter with the crispness and “shrill” of a metal dome but without the ringing issues which cause the ever common fatigue issues of metal domes.

    In my professional opinion, there is absolutely no comparison between the very best Be dome tweeter and the RAAL ribbon tweeter. None, Zero, Nada :0

    When trying to accurately reproduce such small wavelengths, the less moving mass the better. The moving mass should have as close to zero stored energy as possible and must be able to start and stop instantly. The problem with a dome tweeter is that in order to make the dome move, a voice coil (wire windings) must be attached to the diaphragm. This adds a significant amount of moving mass (which includes the wire windings, adhesives and the former) which creates stored energy, excess inertia and dramatically increases decay times. For every wavelength produced, the dome and the windings (adhesives and former as well) need to move with the diaphragm. BTW, this issue exists for planar dynamic ribbons and folded ribbons.

    A pure ribbon tweeter works differently… there is no voice coil, no windings, no former. An electrical current runs through the diaphragm itself (the ribbon) which is suspended between very powerful magnets. There is no excess moving mass, the only moving part is the radiating area itself…

    For example, the moving mass of the RAAL ribbon we are using is a mere 0.039 grams with a radiating area of 13.6 sq cm. This weighs about the same as a single voice coil winding, and most quality tweeters have a dozen or more windings. For comparison purposes, the Scan Speak pure Be dome (66400) has a moving mass of 0.35 grams (which is great for a dome tweeter) with a radiating area of 7 square cm (1 inch dome). Our RAAL has twice the radiating area with ten times less moving mass!

    There really is no comparison; the RAAL has better high frequency extension, significantly better transient response, much less stored energy and a better horizontal polar response. BTW, the SS 66400 retail for $510 each.

    No dome (regardless of diaphragm material), planar dynamic ribbon or folded ribbon will compare favorably against our RAAL pure ribbon. The only possible way to get less moving mass is the legendary plasma tweeter. In what is now fast approaching 30 years of transducer evaluations, no tweeter I have ever measured has come close to the RAAL ribbons… It really comes down to the simple physics of the different designs.

    Hope you all find this useful!

    __________________

  • #2
    jnordi, this obviously comes from Ascend. Who exactly are you quoting? I have no opinion about the facts in this quote and I have never heard the RAAL tweeter, although I have heard nothing but high praise for it. However, this is more of a press release than an unbiased opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      It reads more like a lecture on how RAAL is the best (direct from RAAL). Don't know if its from Ascend, theres several boutique brands that use the RAAL ribbon as well as sold on Madisound for DIY projects. Madisound lists them for around $700 and Ascend offers it as an upgrade for the Sierra towers for $700. I doubt many will cross shop between Arx and a speaker that uses a tweeter that costs almost as much as the A5 tower. Salk makes a tower with the RAAL for $15,999 a pair.

      The RAAL is a fine tweeter and gets rave reviews but price doesn't equal better sounding. If you like ribbon tweeters then you'll probably like the RAAL if you don't like ribbons and like domes instead than you'll probably not like the RAAL.

      Comment


      • #4
        The quote mentions the NrT tweeter and the Sierra-1. That pretty much means Ascend. Another speaker with the RAAL is Philharmonic. The $2,000 Salk SongTowers offer the RAAL for an extra $700. You don't have to spend $16K;)

        From everything I've read the RAALs are great tweeters. That's especially true if you can hear up to 20K Hz. At my age, I can barely make 14K.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi jnordi,

          Love the work you're doing here - more please.

          If possible, can you attribute your opening post and possibly reformat it a touch to show if/that you're quoting another source? Thanks in advance if you can. I'm thinking of having another beer and making some remarks on it...

          Comment


          • #6
            Jon, it is from Ascend.

            The only issue with true ribbon tweeters that is not mentioned is the fact that ALL true ribbon tweeters require the use of a transformer between the crossover and the driver circuit itself. This means that all associated losses (theoretical and actual) with any transformer can also be attributed to this design.

            This also adds greatly to the cost of a true ribbon and also means it's another step entirely for QC.

            The magnetic planar design of the Arx tweeter is directly driven and does not require any transformers or other electronic trickery. ;)

            True ribbons are fantastic....and the RAAL's are outstanding performers. However, the Arx planars deliver a disproportionate percentage of the RAAL's performance for their price.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jnordi
              Hello to all,
              I just wanted to post this thread to show the benefits of different tweeters, dome, planar, folded and true ribbons. I in no way have any intention to to cause any negatives or positives for either configurations just info about tweeters and why I am excited about the A5 and it's price point with the planar magnetic tweeters and what some other tweeters actually cost.
              Hi Guys,

              I have to share this with you… I have extensive experience with different diaphragm materials and have evaluated at least a half dozen Be dome tweeters. From pure Be to various composite materials such as BeCu2 (Copper Beryllium alloy) and AlBeMet (Aluminum Beryllium alloy). I have even evaluated the different forming mechanisms from vapor deposited to film.

              Back in Sept 2009 (prior to the development of our NrT) we started consulting with Brush Wellman in an effort to develop our own vapor deposited pure Be dome diaphragm (just the dome itself) to retrofit the Sierra-1 tweeter. At that same time, we also started working with a Japanese company (TSK) to develop our very own Be dome tweeter. I believe the Japanese were the first to ever use Be in a transducer (an old Yamaha speaker although it could have been Pioneer)

              After spending so much time evaluating, the only Be dome that offered a measurable advantage over a Titanium dome was vapor deposited pure Be. The advantage being that due to the very high stiffness to mass ratio, the resonance frequency of the dome was pushed into the 30 kHz range and out of human audibility. This meant that we now have a dome tweeter with the crispness and “shrill” of a metal dome but without the ringing issues which cause the ever common fatigue issues of metal domes.

              In my professional opinion, there is absolutely no comparison between the very best Be dome tweeter and the RAAL ribbon tweeter. None, Zero, Nada :0

              When trying to accurately reproduce such small wavelengths, the less moving mass the better. The moving mass should have as close to zero stored energy as possible and must be able to start and stop instantly. The problem with a dome tweeter is that in order to make the dome move, a voice coil (wire windings) must be attached to the diaphragm. This adds a significant amount of moving mass (which includes the wire windings, adhesives and the former) which creates stored energy, excess inertia and dramatically increases decay times. For every wavelength produced, the dome and the windings (adhesives and former as well) need to move with the diaphragm. BTW, this issue exists for planar dynamic ribbons and folded ribbons.

              A pure ribbon tweeter works differently… there is no voice coil, no windings, no former. An electrical current runs through the diaphragm itself (the ribbon) which is suspended between very powerful magnets. There is no excess moving mass, the only moving part is the radiating area itself…

              For example, the moving mass of the RAAL ribbon we are using is a mere 0.039 grams with a radiating area of 13.6 sq cm. This weighs about the same as a single voice coil winding, and most quality tweeters have a dozen or more windings. For comparison purposes, the Scan Speak pure Be dome (66400) has a moving mass of 0.35 grams (which is great for a dome tweeter) with a radiating area of 7 square cm (1 inch dome). Our RAAL has twice the radiating area with ten times less moving mass!

              There really is no comparison; the RAAL has better high frequency extension, significantly better transient response, much less stored energy and a better horizontal polar response. BTW, the SS 66400 retail for $510 each.

              No dome (regardless of diaphragm material), planar dynamic ribbon or folded ribbon will compare favorably against our RAAL pure ribbon. The only possible way to get less moving mass is the legendary plasma tweeter. In what is now fast approaching 30 years of transducer evaluations, no tweeter I have ever measured has come close to the RAAL ribbons… It really comes down to the simple physics of the different designs.

              Hope you all find this useful!

              __________________
              Jon, I am truly sorry for this post and to anyone else I may have offended or misguided. I have an all Ascend Acoustics setup and was ready to upgrade to the Sierra Towers/RAAL when I found TAI. The quote above is from Dave F., owner of Ascend Acoustics. I did not purchase the ST's/RAAL because the A5's really caught my attention, after this you may well decide not to sell me a pair. I honestly did not think before posting, I actually thought I was providing something informative. Jon please delete the post, I would if I knew how. This was not a press release but an actual quote from their site from Dave, it has no business being here, I really don't know what I was thinking except to say that the fact that I'm thinking of the A5 in the same reference to a speaker costing more than three times the amount of the A5 is note worthy. Delete please.
              Most Sincerely yours, jnordi

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BufordTJustice
                Jon, it is from Ascend.

                The only issue with true ribbon tweeters that is not mentioned is the fact that ALL true ribbon tweeters require the use of a transformer between the crossover and the driver circuit itself. This means that all associated losses (theoretical and actual) with any transformer can also be attributed to this design.

                This also adds greatly to the cost of a true ribbon and also means it's another step entirely for QC.

                The magnetic planar design of the Arx tweeter is directly driven and does not require any transformers or other electronic trickery. ;)

                True ribbons are fantastic....and the RAAL's are outstanding performers. However, the Arx planars deliver a disproportionate percentage of the RAAL's performance for their price.
                Thank you Collin for saying what I could not.
                jnordi

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jnordi
                  Jon, I am truly sorry for this post and to anyone else I may have offended or misguided. I have an all Ascend Acoustics setup and was ready to upgrade to the Sierra Towers/RAAL when I found TAI. The quote above is from Dave F., owner of Ascend Acoustics. I did not purchase the ST's/RAAL because the A5's really caught my attention, after this you may well decide not to sell me a pair. I honestly did not think before posting, I actually thought I was providing something informative. Jon please delete the post, I would if I knew how. This was not a press release but an actual quote from their site from Dave, it has no business being here, I really don't know what I was thinking except to say that the fact that I'm thinking of the A5 in the same reference to a speaker costing more than three times the amount of the A5 is note worthy. Delete please.
                  Most Sincerely yours, jnordi
                  jnordi,

                  Glad I'm still in the office to see this come in. No harm, no foul WHATSOEVER. I was just curious as to wrote it. I'll offer some thoughts tomorrow.

                  Thanks for your contributions...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Its no problem. I wasn't offended at all and I don't think anyone else was either. So far from my experience being on this forum its a very laid back relaxed forum. Its not full of political bs or agendas. Even when I used the Arx driver and compared it to a competitor no one said one negative thing about the competitors driver even though the Arx was way beyond in quality and performance.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jon Lane
                      Hi jnordi,

                      Love the work you're doing here - more please.

                      If possible, can you attribute your opening post and possibly reformat it a touch to show if/that you're quoting another source? Thanks in advance if you can. I'm thinking of having another beer and making some remarks on it...
                      FIRE ME Jon, no more work will be done. I'm thinking of having a beer and I have not drank in years, I'm a recovering alcoholic and need to get to a meeting ASAP after that post. Talking before thinking is a result of my affliction (addiction).
                      jnordi

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BufordTJustice
                        The only issue with true ribbon tweeters that is not mentioned is the fact that ALL true ribbon tweeters require the use of a transformer between the crossover and the driver circuit itself. This means that all associated losses (theoretical and actual) with any transformer can also be attributed to this design.
                        That's one issue...and all devices have "issues". Every single one.

                        True ribbons are a dead short to the amplifier, which means they do indeed need a step-up transformer to transform low impedance/high current to something that makes a typical amplifier happy. This is no mean feat to pull off, and in combination with ribbons' tendency to have a less than flat response and a lot of power response errors due to their large physical size, tends to take some of the bloom off the ribbon tweeter rose. This is one set of reasons we have yet to use them, and I personally have yet to find one I'd want for my own desert island tweeters.

                        The other reason is they tend to really crowd your crossover design choices, and in my view, having drivers not fall into specific crossover "topologies" has a ton to do with the sound of any multiway speaker. This and another critically important point involving balancing multiple drivers almost never get raised out there and it's really too bad. Suffice to say that in a few important ways audio has not improved of late; it's declined. Arx aims to, in it's small way, turn that around.

                        Originally posted by BufordTJustice
                        This also adds greatly to the cost of a true ribbon and also means it's another step entirely for QC.
                        Also true, and right about here you really have to have some overwhelming advantages elsewhere to warrant the expense.

                        Originally posted by BufordTJustice
                        The magnetic planar design of the Arx tweeter is directly driven and does not require any transformers or other electronic trickery. ;)
                        Correct: It's a direct-drive system, where the amplifier sees the driver's load directly and which has only that driver determining its response.

                        Originally posted by BufordTJustice
                        True ribbons are fantastic....and the RAAL's are outstanding performers. However, the Arx planars deliver a disproportionate percentage of the RAAL's performance for their price.
                        Ribbons can be interesting, and there's a lot out there to choose from: RAAL, Fountek, Raven, Aurum Cantus, Tang Band, LCY, and a number of OEMs who supply the industry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gtpsuper24
                          Its no problem. I wasn't offended at all and I don't think anyone else was either. So far from my experience being on this forum its a very laid back relaxed forum. Its not full of political bs or agendas. Even when I used the Arx driver and compared it to a competitor no one said one negative thing about the competitors driver even though the Arx was way beyond in quality and performance.
                          I read your comparison in another forum and was shocked to see it, it's from that post of yours sup that I came here and have been here since, never heard of ARX until that post, I thank you my friend for your courage to make that comparison and bringing me here.
                          Cheers, jnordi

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jnordi
                            FIRE ME Jon, no more work will be done. I'm thinking of having a beer and I have not drank in years, I'm a recovering alcoholic and need to get to a meeting ASAP after that post. Talking before thinking is a result of my affliction (addiction).
                            jnordi
                            My friend, we're happy to have you here. All information is good information...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jnordi
                              Jon, I am truly sorry for this post and to anyone else I may have offended or misguided. I have an all Ascend Acoustics setup and was ready to upgrade to the Sierra Towers/RAAL when I found TAI. The quote above is from Dave F., owner of Ascend Acoustics. I did not purchase the ST's/RAAL because the A5's really caught my attention, after this you may well decide not to sell me a pair. I honestly did not think before posting, I actually thought I was providing something informative. Jon please delete the post, I would if I knew how. This was not a press release but an actual quote from their site from Dave, it has no business being here, I really don't know what I was thinking except to say that the fact that I'm thinking of the A5 in the same reference to a speaker costing more than three times the amount of the A5 is note worthy. Delete please.
                              Most Sincerely yours, jnordi
                              Jeff, you're okay brother. :)

                              No need to delete the post. We know you're operating in good faith. Don't be worried about feathers getting ruffled. Haha.

                              Comment

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