Adding rear speakers to a 2ch audio system

[Tenn Ham]

I heard some really nice rear delay speaker setups at audio stores many years ago & have the itch to do this with my present system.

I took CD's to some audio stores recently and found the rear channel effect from AV receivers to be really "fakey" sounding, unlike the natural realistic sound from the old Carver and Yamaha rear channel processing units.

Maybe, the sales persons just didn't have things set right on the AVR receivers?

Suggestions or advice anyone?

[dvenardos]

It is pretty tough to get good sounding music from an AVR in two channel much less in surround mode. A lot of people have been going with pre-amps with a home theater bypass for good two channel sound. For good surround you need to go with DVD-Audio / SACD and a receiver with bypass on the multi-channel input, but the catalog is pretty limited and will probably be replaced with Blue Ray audio.

[Tenn Ham]

It is pretty tough to get good sounding music from an AVR in two channel much less in surround mode. A lot of people have been going with pre-amps with a home theater bypass for good two channel sound. For good surround you need to go with DVD-Audio / SACD and a receiver with bypass on the multi-channel input, but the catalog is pretty limited and will probably be replaced with Blue Ray audio.

Hi dvenardos, I probably should include some more information.

My two channel system is composed of all seperate components (preamp, power amp, am/fm tuner, sacd player, tape deck etc ...).

Me and wifey listen to a lot of music (live & recorded), but only watch maybe three or four movies a year.

Our DVD/TV Tuner audio output is selected through the auxilary input of the preamp for TV and movie use.

We have heard some fine 5.1 and 7.1 setups at fairly upscale stores (Tweeter & Hi Fi Buys), but would prefer a more realistic music experience over movie effects.
Actually, we would prefer both, but theres that old family budget thing to consider.

The main speakers here are fairly large omnidirectional style floor standers and deliver a satisfying front hemisphere of sound, but the sense of space behind us is rather lacking.

We already have a set of brand and timbre matching rear
speakers packed away in the closet, but no way to power them with a processed and amplified signal at this time.

We could opt for an AVR, but it would be a pricey and somewhat redundant solution to our current 200WPC setup.

My Carver C-1 Preamp has two sets of identical outputs, and one output is still free.

I'm not too up on Blue Ray market.

A Blue Ray player with adjustable parameter rear ouput's and an additional 100-150 wpc power amp output might just do the job.

Whatever the solution, its got to be a beliveable effect like we hear in clubs, and not that fakey reverb we have heard recently at audio stores.

I'm just not sure what's out there now, or on the near horizon.

Oh well ... I just got up and need to get some coffee down before I post anymore typo's for now.

[dvenardos]

What is your budget?

[Tenn Ham]

What is your budget?

We would like to keep our desired upgrades under two grand ...one grand or less for rear fill sound and one grand or under for two subwoofers.

[dvenardos]

I would look at the Oppo BDP-83 as the center piece for your surround setup.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/

Then what you need is a multi-channel analog preamp. Check out these threads:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64641.0

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545

For a subwoofer I would consider TCAs upcoming 10.2 or these:

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2661

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53675.0

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=139

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=141

We would like to keep our desired upgrades under two grand ...one grand or less for rear fill sound and one grand or under for two subwoofers.

[Tenn Ham]

I would look at the Oppo BDP-83 as the center piece for your surround setup.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/

Then what you need is a multi-channel analog preamp. Check out these threads:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64641.0

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545

For a subwoofer I would consider TCAs upcoming 10.2 or these:

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2661

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=53675.0

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=139

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp...ROD&ProdID=141

Thanks a bunch dvenardos ... links and everything ... you da man ! :clapper:

I'll save my subwoofer needs for another thread, so as to not dilute and confuse this one too much.
But rest assured the CS10.2's are currently on my short list as well as the GR & OB stuff now (double thanks for those links).

My problem is that I'm not educated enough on the surround sound formats.

Can you get the rear delay signals off the rear apron of the Oppo Blu-Ray player WITHOUT adding anything to the two main channels up front?

I have my omnidirectional mains placed in a way that they present a nice plausible sense of acoustic space (with any decent recording) over the entire hemisphere in front our the listening position.

Adding any more delay signal to them would just muddy up the clarity IMO.

Last question for now.

Does the dolby format allow the user to set the inital delay times and characteristics?

My personal preference from fooling around with some old dedicated delay units was 20-30ms (small to medium club venue type sound).

[dvenardos]

Can you get the rear delay signals off the rear apron of the Oppo Blu-Ray player WITHOUT adding anything to the two main channels up front?

From the Oppo Manual

Distance: The speaker distance parameters sets delay control for the corresponding audio channel.
The delay is to compensate for the audio propagation time difference caused by the placement of
speakers.
...
Anytime you change the distance of the front speakers, the distance of the other speakers will be
automatically adjusted to maintain the same distance difference.

This applies to multi-channel audio. SACDs and DVD-A that are coded for surround sound. I would not recommend trying to add rear channel information for discs that are coded for two channel (Redbook CDs) it just doesn't work well for critical listening. The multi-channel SACDs and DVD-A discs, however, do sound very good.

Does the dolby format allow the user to set the inital delay times and characteristics?

This is a function of the decoder and not the format being decoded. The Oppo allows you to set speaker distance (which affects delay) using the main speakers as the reference point. Not sure if the Oppo has surround modes which is what I believe you are referring to (I am saving up for the Oppo SE).

The Oppo will redirect sound information from missing speakers to the other channels if possible. In your case this would be mainly the center channel speaker.

edit: One glitch with the Oppo configuration:

Distance between the surround speakers and the listener must be shorter than or equal to that
between the front speakers and the listener.

[Tenn Ham]

I used to be the audio/sound guy in a local mobile DJ company years ago.

Things could get a little complicated then ... biamping, mixers, eq's, compressor limiters, gates, mike audio, feedback control ... and on & on & on.

I've done just enough reading on modern home theater
to realize that "complicated" has risen to a new level.

My decision right now is to study up more while I save and wait for a good pair of musical subs.

PS I've read subwoofer forums for several years now, and have a pretty decent idea about my bass needs.

[dvenardos]

That is probably a good choice. I don't think it is really worth it to try and matrix two channel and I would wait and see if a lot hirez remasters start coming out for BlueRay, that would be the time to go to multi-channel for music.