15 Amp Circuit with JTR Captivators

[gdsk39a]

For those that were inquiring about 15 amp circuits being able to handle JTR Captivators here is your answer. My home theater WXLXH is 17'X27'X8.5' closed in in the basement. In the one back corner I have colocated an ED A7-450 and an Epik Tower. In the other back corner ther are 2 JTR Captivator Pro's stacked, in the one front corner a Def Tech Reference and the other front corner another Def tech reference. Total subwoofer available wattage is 13,500 watts.

Listening to POD scene WOTW at near reference level no amplifier or circuit issues noticed. This tells me that even though I have 13,500 watts of subwoofer power available it's rarely ever used, hence why no circuit issues.

I will note that the only time I notice the lights dimming in the home theater is when the ED and captivator subwoofer amps are turned on. That dimming lasts for a microsecond.

How do the 2 captivators sound with the rest of the subwoofers? In 3 words "scary as hell". With room gain and all the subs playing and calibrated at 87db (seating position), I get 85 db at 10hz at the seating position. I am working on tweaking calibration because with the addition of 2 captivators my curve has changed from 30hz to 100 hz with a few small dips here and there.

Also, I now have to figure out how to eliminate wall rattles due to the increased subsonic frequencies.

[craigsub]

Thanks for the post - If you want to experience scary, try our $5000 subwoofer package of 4 SS-18.2's in that room. In a room like yours, you could expect 120 + dB down to 7 Hz. "thumbsup:

[HuskerOmaha]

Wow. You guys have problems. Good problems.

I would think with that much power you'd have to have a dedicated room built right otherwise wouldn't the rattling of random things bug you?

:applause:

[edgebsl]

Thanks for the post - If you want to experience scary, try our $5000 subwoofer package of 4 SS-18.2's in that room. In a room like yours, you could expect 120 + dB down to 7 Hz. "thumbsup:

I second that. That would be a fascinating comparison.
Although 4 Dayton amps puts out about 4000W continuous and 8000W peak, the dual 18" box is incredibly efficient. And not just at 80hz, it is remarkably efficient at 10hz. The advantage of having 8 18" drivers in a sealed configuration over 3 18"s and a 15" in ported alignments would be significant. Especially in the subsonic frequencies.

But it sounds like you have an "over the top" setup at any rate!
Were you considering replacing the ED and Epik subs with two more Caps to have 4 matching boxes all around? There is something about having matched subs all around that just seems appealing to me. Perhaps it is simply a touch of OCD?

The funny thing is, whenever someone attempts to mix and match subs utilizing an 18.1 or an 18.2, they seem to end up replacing the other subs with more 18.1s or 18.2s! I think that is because once heard in a real world, in room audition...it is fairly tough to match the output, extension and sound quality.

A perfect example of this is when MKTheater replaced his two Danley DTS-10s with two more 18.2s. He took a little skepticism for this, as many felt the Danley's which were larger and more expensive clearly should have been his first choice. But his own tests, and back and forth listening sessions revealed to him that the 18.2s were his favorite hands down!

Thank you for sharing your experience with us gdsk!

[HuskerOmaha]

I think Mk said if he put a DTS up against one CS-18.2 the DTS was his favorite...but when he put 4 of the monsters in his room and figuring in his cost/output the DTS/eD configurations had no chance.....!

That guy has BASS nirvana.:woo:

[gdsk39a]

I second that. That would be a fascinating comparison.
Although 4 Dayton amps puts out about 4000W continuous and 8000W peak, the dual 18" box is incredibly efficient. And not just at 80hz, it is remarkably efficient at 10hz. The advantage of having 8 18" drivers in a sealed configuration over 3 18"s and a 15" in ported alignments would be significant. Especially in the subsonic frequencies.

But it sounds like you have an "over the top" setup at any rate!
Were you considering replacing the ED and Epik subs with two more Caps to have 4 matching boxes all around? There is something about having matched subs all around that just seems appealing to me. Perhaps it is simply a touch of OCD?

The funny thing is, whenever someone attempts to mix and match subs utilizing an 18.1 or an 18.2, they seem to end up replacing the other subs with more 18.1s or 18.2s! I think that is because once heard in a real world, in room audition...it is fairly tough to match the output, extension and sound quality.

A perfect example of this is when MKTheater replaced his two Danley DTS-10s with two more 18.2s. He took a little skepticism for this, as many felt the Danley's which were larger and more expensive clearly should have been his first choice. But his own tests, and back and forth listening sessions revealed to him that the 18.2s were his favorite hands down!

Thank you for sharing your experience with us gdsk!

I would love to match and I am grateful that my wife lets me do this stuff. I think though I have hit the budget limit and the configuration will stay as is for awhile or until I get her a nice diamond ring and then ask for additional budget allowance.

[edgebsl]

I would love to match and I am grateful that my wife lets me do this stuff. I think though I have hit the budget limit and the configuration will stay as is for awhile or until I get her a nice diamond ring and then ask for additional budget allowance.

Understandable, your wife is much more forgiving than most!

Where are you located at?

Keep us posted when you do get "upgraditis" again.
We would love for you to hear what the flexibility and extension of our setups could do in your room.

For now, sounds like you have an awesome setup!

[Nfrasotoo]

I think Mk said if he put a DTS up against one CS-18.2 the DTS was his favorite...but when he put 4 of the monsters in his room and figuring in his cost/output the DTS/eD configurations had no chance.....!

That guy has BASS nirvana.:woo:

I think 1 vs 1 he still had a boosted low-end on the DTS-10 and preferred that sound at the time. Once he flattened everything he started to prefer the flat response and then the CS-18.2s.

From an output perspective, we kinda looked at it in this thread: http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...ead.php?t=3487. This is as close to similar data for the two as I can find, both adjusted for 1m. MK has the equivalent of the "Octo" listed here, and previously had "Duo" DTS-10s.

CS-18s (Tone Burst SPL aka "CEA-2010"):

[B]Frequency		Mono	Duo	Quatro	Octo[/B]
20 Hz 	 	 	111dB 	117dB	123dB	[B]129dB[/B]
25 Hz 	 	 	114dB	120dB	126dB	[B]132dB[/B]
31.5 Hz	  		118dB	124dB	130dB	[B]136dB[/B]
40-100 Hz average	125dB	131dB 	137dB	[B]143dB[/B]

DTS-10s (Max Short Term Discrete aka "CEA-2010"):

[B]Frequency		Mono	Duo[/B]
20 Hz 	 	 	114dB 	[B]120dB[/B]
25 Hz 	 	 	117.5dB	[B]123.5dB[/B]
31.5 Hz	  		119dB	[B]126dB[/B]
40-100 Hz average	125dB	[B]131dB[/B]

I'd love to see a CS-18 measured by Ricci and put up there with directly comparable data to the others tested. It's a great resource with thorough objective measurements. The review comparison thread by the brothers over at AVS was nice, but nothing real useful came of it from a performance perspective because of the measuring equipment, the room, etc...

On the Data-Bass blog he said the next round of testing they're "looking to put together some popular commercial subwoofer systems and some new drivers that have yet to be put to the test by anyone", so it would be awesome to have a CraigSub represented in the commercial mix.

[Nfrasotoo]

I still don't know what to make of the Captivators. Jeff is claiming "130db's at 20hz per CEA 2010 test methods."

You can look at Ricci's measured drivers/systems with the short-term burst (CEA-2010) 20Hz measurements here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?catego...rt=desc&mfr=-1

Jeff is claiming that it will take 9 x DTS-10s (18 x 12" drivers, horn-loaded in 9 16"x44"x60" cabinets) to match a single 18" ported Captivator at 20Hz.

He's claiming that you would need 16 x LMS-5400s to match a single Captivator at 20Hz.

Over at AVS, notnyt has built an impressive sealed array of 8 x LMS-5400s in 4 cabinets:



Again, Jeff is claiming that this ridiculously impressive setup would be outgunned at 20Hz by a single 18" driver in a ported cabinet, aka the Captivator, by double (6dB)!

I'm having a hard time buying this.

[HuskerOmaha]

Definitely doesn't pass the smell test

[edgebsl]

I still don't know what to make of the Captivators. Jeff is claiming "130db's at 20hz per CEA 2010 test methods."

You can look at Ricci's measured drivers/systems with the short-term burst (CEA-2010) 20Hz measurements here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?catego...rt=desc&mfr=-1

Jeff is claiming that it will take 9 x DTS-10s (18 x 12" drivers, horn-loaded in 9 16"x44"x60" cabinets) to match a single 18" ported Captivator at 20Hz.

He's claiming that you would need 16 x LMS-5400s to match a single Captivator at 20Hz.

Over at AVS, notnyt has built an impressive sealed array of 8 x LMS-5400s in 4 cabinets:

Again, Jeff is claiming that this ridiculously impressive setup would be outgunned at 20Hz by a single 18" driver in a ported cabinet, aka the Captivator, by double (6dB)!

I'm having a hard time buying this.

Jeff is getting his numbers in eighth space by CEA standard tone burst (from what I understand, someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Therefore you would subtract 12 db to get an accurate comparison to something measured at ground plane. By the same token, there is also a 6 db difference between one meter measurements and two meter measurements.:scratchchin:

So I do not believe so much that JTR has wrong numbers, but it does seem they may be ignoring the fact that other products they are comparing to are not using the same calculation of measurements. By the same measurements you would adjust the above referenced numbers to show the DTS 10 producing 126 db at 20 hz.Adding 12db. A ported subwoofer usually experiences a substantial boost around 20hz or the tuning frequency but does not have increased output capability in the midbass like a sealed subwoofer or horn.

It certainly looks to be a fine product. But an interesting comparison would be against an Epik Conquest or an ED A7-450. It seems to me those would be very comparable products in the ported subwoofer category. Although you can only find a Conquest used today.

Certainly the claims of outgunning multiples of the DTS 10 in terms of output are based on miscalculated data. By the same token the CS 18.2 is fair competition against ANY single 18" setup either sealed or ported... In terms of output. Because no matter how far the throw or great the power handling, it would take an absolutely tremendous amount of throw for a driver to keep up with two drivers of the same size.

As you may have noticed in the other threads, Craig has been working on his own large vented sub. Having experienced large subs like the Conquest and the A7-900 back in the days of the subwoofer shootout. He has plenty of experience with such ported beasts, and undoubtedly this one will be a great performer at a very reasonable price,size and weight. it will certainly please fans of the ported subwoofer:D

[Nfrasotoo]

Jeff is getting his numbers in eighth space by CEA standard tone burst (from what I understand, someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Therefore you would subtract 12 db to get an accurate comparison to something measured at ground plane. By the same token, there is also a 6 db difference between one meter measurements and two meter measurements.:scratchchin:

So I do not believe so much that JTR has wrong numbers, but it does seem they may be ignoring the fact that other products they are comparing to are not using the same calculation of measurements. By the same measurements you would adjust the above referenced numbers to show the DTS 10 producing 126 db at 20 hz.Adding 12db. A ported subwoofer usually experiences a substantial boost around 20hz or the tuning frequency but does not have increased output capability in the midbass like a sealed subwoofer or horn.

It certainly looks to be a fine product. But an interesting comparison would be against an Epik Conquest or an ED A7-450. It seems to me those would be very comparable products in the ported subwoofer category. Although you can only find a Conquest used today.

Certainly the claims of outgunning multiples of the DTS 10 in terms of output are based on miscalculated data. By the same token the CS 18.2 is fair competition against ANY single 18" setup either sealed or ported... In terms of output. Because no matter how far the throw or great the power handling, it would take an absolutely tremendous amount of throw for a driver to keep up with two drivers of the same size.

As you may have noticed in the other threads, Craig has been working on his own large vented sub. Having experienced large subs like the Conquest and the A7-900 back in the days of the subwoofer shootout. He has plenty of experience with such ported beasts, and undoubtedly this one will be a great performer at a very reasonable price,size and weight. it will certainly please fans of the ported subwoofer:D

Hmm, that would definitely explain some of the disparity with reality. :cool: However...

Shortly after the 130dB 20Hz CEA-2010 claim on his forum, he followed up with this post:

There is one other subwoofer on the market that is claiming these numbers however they have a little disclaimer "in room" which is an additional 6-12db output over "outdoor" measurements.

It would seem odd for Jeff to post an "in-room" number (eighth-space), and then make that statement. Also, the other measurements he posted for the Captivator (sine-wave sweeps) have been ground plane.

Ricci's tests (www.data-bass.com) and Ilkka's tests (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...mpilation.html) were both 2m ground plane for CEA-2010.

At best his numbers are extremely misleading. "In-room" simulations are always misleading, especially when quoting a standard, which I believe dictates ground plane testing, and even more so when you don't specify the numbers as being eighth-space! You would expect Jeff knows this very well.

EDIT: Actually, on his product page (http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/), he lists ground plane numbers with 20Hz at 127dB "usable output". Whether this (usable) means continuous long term and he's still claiming 130dB as the short-term burst per CEA-2010 standards is anyone's guess.

But either way, it looks like he is indeed using ground plane numbers, and my comparisons hold up.

Let's take the most conservative interpretation of his numbers. Let's say 127dB is his CEA-2010 number at 20Hz, ground plane and let's say he used a 1m number since it isn't specified.

The claim is that the Captivator (again, single ported 18", 30mm xmax) delivers the equivalent of 3 x LMS-5400s (18" 38mm xmax) and 6 x 18" passive radiators as measured by Ilkka. With this the most conservative interpretation of his claim, it would still mean a single Captivator *matches* notnyt's 8 x LMS-5400s sealed array at 20Hz I posted above.

I'm still not remotely close to buying that one either.

[edgebsl]

If those are ground plane numbers, I have to scratch my head in disbelief. I believe I recognize what his 18" driver is both used in the Cap and the OS.
If it is what I think it is there is no comparison to what the LMS can do. A very good unit, yes. But doesn't jive with those numbers at GP.

Hmm, that would definitely explain some of the disparity with reality. :cool: However...

Shortly after the 130dB 20Hz CEA-2010 claim on his forum, he followed up with this post:



It would seem odd for Jeff to post an "in-room" number (eighth-space), and then make that statement. Also, the other measurements he posted for the Captivator (sine-wave sweeps) have been ground plane.

Ricci's tests (www.data-bass.com) and Ilkka's tests (http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...mpilation.html) were both 2m ground plane for CEA-2010.

At best his numbers are extremely misleading. "In-room" simulations are always misleading, especially when quoting a standard, which I believe dictates ground plane testing, and even more so when you don't specify the numbers as being eighth-space! You would expect Jeff knows this very well.

EDIT: Actually, on his product page (http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/), he lists ground plane numbers with 20Hz at 127dB "usable output". Whether this (usable) means continuous long term and he's still claiming 130dB as the short-term burst per CEA-2010 standards is anyone's guess.

But either way, it looks like he is indeed using ground plane numbers, and my comparisons hold up.

Let's take the most conservative interpretation of his numbers. Let's say 127dB is his CEA-2010 number at 20Hz, ground plane and let's say he used a 1m number since it isn't specified.

The claim is that the Captivator (again, single ported 18", 30mm xmax) delivers the equivalent of 3 x LMS-5400s (18" 38mm xmax) and 6 x 18" passive radiators as measured by Ilkka. With this the most conservative interpretation of his claim, it would still mean a single Captivator *matches* notnyt's 8 x LMS-5400s sealed array at 20Hz I posted above.

I'm still not remotely close to buying that one either.

[Nfrasotoo]

It shares the similar 12-spoke basket like the Fi IB3, but it's clearly a custom build by Jeff significantly beefed up over any of Fi's offerings. The 30lb difference has to mean something.

I have no problem believing he put together a driver on par with the LMS-5400 (though doubtful, it's within the realm of reason), but I just can't believe he's got something that takes on multiples with ease.

If that were true, the DIY forum at AVS would be exploding with people buying up $1200 passive Captivators to strip the driver out and use in their builds. Obviously it far outperforms the LMS at $900, so tossing the cabinet of the JTR is a bargain.

Here's the Cap's driver (68lbs):



And the IB3 (38lbs):



The LMS-5400 Ultra (86lbs):

[gdsk39a]

For those that were inquiring about 15 amp circuits being able to handle JTR Captivators here is your answer. My home theater WXLXH is 17'X27'X8.5' closed in in the basement. In the one back corner I have colocated an ED A7-450 and an Epik Tower. In the other back corner ther are 2 JTR Captivator Pro's stacked, in the one front corner a Def Tech Reference and the other front corner another Def tech reference. Total subwoofer available wattage is 13,500 watts.

Listening to POD scene WOTW at near reference level no amplifier or circuit issues noticed. This tells me that even though I have 13,500 watts of subwoofer power available it's rarely ever used, hence why no circuit issues.

I will note that the only time I notice the lights dimming in the home theater is when the ED and captivator subwoofer amps are turned on. That dimming lasts for a microsecond.

How do the 2 captivators sound with the rest of the subwoofers? In 3 words "scary as hell". With room gain and all the subs playing and calibrated at 87db (seating position), I get 85 db at 10hz at the seating position. I am working on tweaking calibration because with the addition of 2 captivators my curve has changed from 30hz to 100 hz with a few small dips here and there.

Also, I now have to figure out how to eliminate wall rattles due to the increased subsonic frequencies.

I wanted to clarify that the 85db at 10hz is the 87 db calibration signal. It shows only a 2 db loss at 10hz in my room. Friday night I turned the volume on my Marantz AV8003 to 0 reference level (WOTW Pod Scene and I have never gone to 0 before) the epik tower amp went into protection mode as did the A7-450's amp, however, the 2 captivator amps kept rolling on (no amp clipping at all) and the 18 inch drivers were showing massive excursion. I had to turn the level down after a 2 minutes as I was concerned with the house structure and my own health. By the way the epik tower gain was at 9 oclock and the A7-450 at 1:00 ocloc. The gain on the captivators was set to max.

I think Jeff's design of the captivator pro shows that extreme amplifier wattage with extreme driver excursion leads to extreme SPL levels. Of course this assumes a well designed box. The 2 captivators are tuned to 15hz.

Craigs subwoofer designs are awsome and reasonably priced, I am only addressing what I observed with 2 captivators massive wattage capabilities and massive driver excursion.

Oh, I forgot the 2 def tech reference for some reason kept on going there gain was set to the 9 oclock position. I was expecting those to shut down. They each have 1800 watt amps.