Announcement

**craigsub** · 08-30-2009, 08:37 AM

Bob - a quick take without being there ...

Movies often have this deep rumble. It doubt you are having any problems at all - it does not appear you are bottoming the driver (which is hard to do in this design anyway) ...

So - if you like what you are hearing on music, and the sub makes movies exciting, have fun with it.

As for the air being moved ... good subs do this. :whoopie:

**Mactavish** · 08-30-2009, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by craigsub

Bob - a quick take without being there ...

Movies often have this deep rumble. It doubt you are having any problems at all - it does not appear you are bottoming the driver (which is hard to do in this design anyway) ...

So - if you like what you are hearing on music, and the sub makes movies exciting, have fun with it.

As for the air being moved ... good subs do this. :whoopie:

Thanks Craig,
How would I know if I "bottom" the sub?

I heard back from the sub designer, with NO tips at all in experimenting with any of the plate amp settings. I also mentioned the same kind of sub response when playing the Pink Panther at -15 db's, much lower then the Iron Man test, so I was NOT playing it TOO LOUD, but see and hear the same thing during low end SFX. This was the response and then my followup.

AMP MAKER:
"The main thing is 0db is very loud. F12G cannot handle volume like that. I have a Denon AVR and I play at -10db in my larger than normal family room (30'x30') here in Texas. In my previous small family room (15'x20') in California, I played with -15db with the same gear. Larger room needs higher volume setting to fill up the room. 0db is for those who have large rooms and are crazy about having the ability to play at "reference level". A reference level does not mean it is the level we must play. If you want to play at that level, you need a 15" sub. Maybe even a 15" vented sub. That is why there are so many different subwoofer models. Each of them fit certain output requirement. For those already know they will play at 0db level, they will buy multiple subs to get the output up to that level."

I ASKED:
"Are there ANY settings on the sub plate I can PLAY with and EXPERIMENT with, like CHANGING the "LOW PASS" or "FREQ" switch settings, just for movie playback? Don't any of the plate amp settings effect LOWERING the amount of "low end" freqs coming out of the sub? Since audio music CD's etc. sound fine, I could switch back after movie viewing."

Thanks Craig, and any other opinions are welcome as I would like to be able to experiment with any of the plate amp controls that MAY help when playing back movies with low end SFX, there must be some logical choices, I listed all the settings the sub amp has on the back, no?

**Kevin_Wadsworth** · 08-31-2009, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Mactavish

How would I know if I "bottom" the sub?

I'm not Craig, but I have bottomed a sub before - it sounded like a metallic "clack" It's definitely not mistakable for a normal subwoofer noise.

It sounds like your sub is doing what it's supposed to do. Have you checked the level with a microphone or SPL meter? I have no experience with Audessy to know how well it dials in the subwoofer level.

Otherwise, there might be some peaks/valleys due to your room reposne that you could smooth out with placement of the subwoofer or EQ.

**Ray3** · 08-31-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Kevin_Wadsworth

I'm not Craig, but I have bottomed a sub before - it sounded like a metallic "clack" It's definitely not mistakable for a normal subwoofer noise.

It sounds like your sub is doing what it's supposed to do. Have you checked the level with a microphone or SPL meter? I have no experience with Audessy to know how well it dials in the subwoofer level.

Otherwise, there might be some peaks/valleys due to your room reposne that you could smooth out with placement of the subwoofer or EQ.

+1. My initial thought is that the first place to start would be calibrating the system with an SPL meter. I use that calibration for music and then adjust the sub to run it 3 db hot for movies.

**Mactavish** · 08-31-2009, 12:37 PM

Thanks guys, I was set another message by the "maker", who said to try "28kHz" and "HI Damping", which I did using the same scenes that produce the low SFX, but did not see or hear a huge difference. I'm going to retest this theory with a few more BlueRay movies as well before giving up on the plate amp settings. I was then told I could also simply turn down the GAIN. Right now I've let the Onkyo 906's AVR "Audyssey program set the level to "0". Problem with changing the level's manually is right now the level is fine for CD/SACD Audio Music and the dialog on movies and movie soundtracks, it's just when the low freq effects come on screen that the subwoofer labors, these are at time short bursts, but some effects can last a lot longer, that's when I get concerned. I do have a digital SPL meter, but according to Chris the Audyssey rep. in the Audyssey thread on the AVS forum, SPL meters are not very accurate for measuring subwoofer levels as the low freqs they put out are not the same as those put out by regular speakers. If anyone is interested I can try and find those links, but I've read that info about SPL meters and subwoofers in more then one place.

Attached Files

**brother love** · 08-31-2009, 12:52 PM

I have a Rythmik F12G sub, Denon avr-1909 (90 wpc), Oppo BDP-83 blu-ray & elt525 towers, center w/ smaller Paradigm dipoles for surrounds.

My room size is 17' x 11' x 8'.

AVR settings: sub xover: 80 Hz, fronts/ center/ surrounds: Small

Audyssey calibration settings are:
-4.5 left front, -5.0 center, -4.5 right front
-8.0 subwoofer
-1.5 left surround, +1.5 right surround
Dynamic EQ: ON
connections: HDMI for movies (multi-channel analog: music only)

Due to annoying & ridiculously loud movie scenes for majority of Dolby TrueHD & DTS-Master Audio blu-ray disks:

I normally adjust avr center dialogue to +10 dB & subwoofer to -12 dB. Even w/ these settings & resultant lower overall volume level, disks like Kung Fu Panda, still boom, shake, rattle & roll like crazy. For me, it's still impressive without being stupid loud. But to each their own ...

**Mactavish** · 08-31-2009, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by brother love

I have a Rythmik F12G sub, Denon avr-1909 (90 wpc), Oppo BDP-83 blu-ray & elt525 towers, center w/ smaller Paradigm dipoles for surrounds.

My room size is 17' x 11' x 8'.

AVR settings: sub xover: 80 Hz, fronts/ center/ surounds: Small

Audyssey calibration settings are:
-4.5 left front, -5.0 center, -4.5 roght front
-8.0 subwoofer
-1.5, +1.5 surrounds

For Dolby TrueHD & DTS-Master Audio disks I normally set avr center dialogue to +10 dB & subwoofer to -12 dB.

Interesting as we have similar sized rooms, I like the idea of temporarily setting the center channel higher as Dialog has always been hard for me to hear, my center channel speaker is not the best in the world. And I see like me, you find the subwoofer for movies to perhaps be too much output wise for low freq SFX.

BTW: Not that it matters, since Audyssey is correcting for your subwoofer's "gain" setting by ending up giving you a "-8db" correction, but you could dial the gain down before running Audyssey, so the final output is closer to "0", the result is the same thing, you just put the gain control volume knob more in the neutral zone so to speak. The Audyssey board has some great FAQ material. If one finds the final Audyssey subwoofer correction gets close to -12 or -15, don't remember then the subs gain should be turned down and Audyssey run again, it's a pain in the butt to re-run it as it takes almost 1/2 hour to finish each time.

Once it's set, I would not mess with the gain control on the sub, but change it's output in the AVR temporarily just for MOVIE playback, this may be my best option at this point, don't want to risk damaging the sub when the SFX sneak up on me.

**brother love** · 08-31-2009, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Mactavish

...it's a pain in the butt to re-run it as it takes almost 1/2 hour to finish each time.

Once it's set, I would not mess with the gain control on the sub, but change it's output in the AVR temporarily just for MOVIE playback...

That's my feelings on the subject. Sub gain adjustment vs. avr setting adjustment. It's all relative so long as you can adjust & not run out of room (then tweaking is in order).

**Mactavish** · 08-31-2009, 05:51 PM

Solution found in avr settings

Well it looks like I stumbled across what may be the PERFECT solution to the LFE being over powering on BlueRay movie audio SFX playback, at least in my case. My Onkyo 906 AVR has a menu option to set LFE levels for various disk/movie codecs, so I experimented with the Dolby TrueHD setting. You can choose OFF/-10/-20 db. I played with all three, the -10db is perfect. While I will not get room shaking bass effects, I'm more concerned with NOT damaging the subwoofer. I held my hand in front of the subwoofer cloth covering, and the air push was FAR LESS, and the resulting SFX audio was fine for my home theatre needs, I'm not looking to rattle my apartment anyways, and now feel much better about not destroying my expensive subwoofer. If you have a modern AVR, you may have this adjustment setting, look at your manual.

I'm shocked you HT guys did not think of this possibility, then again "real men don't read manuals" I guess? Thanks for the input, learned some more valuable lessons.

**Ray3** · 08-31-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by brother love

I have a Rythmik F12G sub, Denon avr-1909 (90 wpc), Oppo BDP-83 blu-ray & elt525 towers, center w/ smaller Paradigm dipoles for surrounds.

My room size is 17' x 11' x 8'.

AVR settings: sub xover: 80 Hz, fronts/ center/ surrounds: Small

Audyssey calibration settings are:
-4.5 left front, -5.0 center, -4.5 right front
-8.0 subwoofer
-1.5 left surround, +1.5 right surround
Dynamic EQ: ON
connections: HDMI for movies (multi-channel analog: music only)

Due to annoying & ridiculously loud movie scenes for majority of Dolby TrueHD & DTS-Master Audio blu-ray disks:

I normally adjust avr center dialogue to +10 dB & subwoofer to -12 dB. Even w/ these settings & resultant lower overall volume level, disks like Kung Fu Panda, still boom, shake, rattle & roll like crazy. For me, it's still impressive without being stupid loud. But to each their own ...

I am not a fan of the Denon Audyssey, (although there are some that are), because I find it does some things that seem odd to me. And adjusts some things I don’t think it should be fooling with. YMMV.

Have you compared (after resetting the 1909 and starting fresh) calibrating with an SPL and looking at ALL of the Denon settings in the menu?

If not, here are a few suggestions:
1) I think Audyssey sets the sub to -12 automaticaaly. Look through the 1909 menus. There is also another setting in the 1909 menus that sets the sub volume independently in 5 db degrees.

2) Set the speakers to small and make sure you set the crossovers in the Denon menu. LFE applies to movies only. If you want the sub for only LFE from movies then set it to LFE. But if you also want the sub for music and other sources then set it to LFE+MAIN.

3) Check the distance to speaker for each one

4) If the 1909 has the capability in the menu (I have a 3808), set the EQ to flat.

5)Check to see if the 1909 may have aseparate crossover setting for 2 channel direct/stereo under “Audio Setup” (the 3808 does) in it’s menus. Once I updated that it uses my SW properly for lower frequencies. Very obscure having multiple crossover settings.

6.) This is something I saw in a post somewhere. I didn’t try it, but thought you might find it interesting:
“I tried a lower sub crossover (60) and found great clarity and definition in bass. The 70-100 range of frequencies contain a lot of bottom end, but if they are emphasized too much, can add too much boom to the mix. That makes you turn your sub down, which them removes a bit too much bass, and then can make your mains too harsh. I found if I lowered the sub content, I could then have nice volume and presence with the low end, but could also hear the 80-120 stuff my nice mains were outputting. The mains also represent a stereo field with these frequencies, as opposed to the sub which is centered.”

Hope some of this helps.

**Mactavish** · 08-31-2009, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by Ray3

I am not a fan of the Denon Audyssey, (although there are some that are), because I find it does some things that seem odd to me. And adjusts some things I don’t think it should be fooling with. YMMV.

Have you compared (after resetting the 1909 and starting fresh) calibrating with an SPL and looking at ALL of the Denon settings in the menu?

If not, here are a few suggestions:
1) I think Audyssey sets the sub to -12 automaticaaly. Look through the 1909 menus. There is also another setting in the 1909 menus that sets the sub volume independently in 5 db degrees.

2) Set the speakers to small and make sure you set the crossovers in the Denon menu. LFE applies to movies only. If you want the sub for only LFE from movies then set it to LFE. But if you also want the sub for music and other sources then set it to LFE+MAIN.

3) Check the distance to speaker for each one

4) If the 1909 has the capability in the menu (I have a 3808), set the EQ to flat.

5)Check to see if the 1909 may have aseparate crossover setting for 2 channel direct/stereo under “Audio Setup” (the 3808 does) in it’s menus. Once I updated that it uses my SW properly for lower frequencies. Very obscure having multiple crossover settings.

6.) This is something I saw in a post somewhere. I didn’t try it, but thought you might find it interesting:
“I tried a lower sub crossover (60) and found great clarity and definition in bass. The 70-100 range of frequencies contain a lot of bottom end, but if they are emphasized too much, can add too much boom to the mix. That makes you turn your sub down, which them removes a bit too much bass, and then can make your mains too harsh. I found if I lowered the sub content, I could then have nice volume and presence with the low end, but could also hear the 80-120 stuff my nice mains were outputting. The mains also represent a stereo field with these frequencies, as opposed to the sub which is centered.”

Hope some of this helps.

Nice post, I don't personally own a Denon so much of your advice to the other poster of course does not pertain to my Onkyo 906, but I am becoming interested in messing with the standard subwoofer crossover which is 80 kHz. I am going to play with 60 kHz on my system, as my Ohm bookshelf speakers while sounding nice have very little low end, perhaps passing some more Hertz to the Rythmik subwoofer would make my music CD/SACD playback sound better. This sub costs 1/2 of the cost of the AVR itself, so I did not skimp in concerns to my own budget here. Thoughts?

Forgot to add, I like the Audyssey program on my AVR and how it sounds with my mostly hardwood floors, brick walls, hard walls etc. Someday I hope to do some treatments, but for now the Audyssey settings are a good thing. The sub is set by Audyssey, but there is no -12 db after completion, using my subs gain control, I get a final result on Audyssey of near "0", so the base level is fine, I am using any and all AVR settings to control sub output, like MultiEQ setting, which seems to be the best here, DynamicEQ is a bit too bassy, and for THX sources I've engaged the "Loudness to ON" which then defeates DynamicEQ automatically for THX listening modes. This THX loudness function is a lot less bassy then the DynamicEQ of Audyssey at lower main volume levels, but I doubt I will use the THX audio listening modes as I prefer the Dolby ProLogic listening modes, for 2.1 to 7.1 matrix. When I play a modern BlueRay disk, I let the AVR select Dolby TrueHD, which in most cases are 5.1 sources, but again at times I use the PLxII mode to expand 5.1 to 7.1 speakers. Still learning....

**Mactavish** · 08-31-2009, 06:38 PM

On second thought, making the tiny Ohm mains do more subwoofer work may not be a great idea in my case, my sub is most likely a better all around quality speaker, not sure. Guess I could play either way, but I don't have very expensive or large mains to begin with, so most likely letting the sub do what it is designed for, audio below 80 kHz, not just 60 kHz may be best here.

**Ray3** · 08-31-2009, 06:44 PM

+1. :huge:

**brother love** · 09-01-2009, 08:27 AM

Ray3,

Thanks for the great input! I'm an "older" audiophile/ videophile, so tinkering is part of the fun in this hobby, yes ? ;)

Having said that, there is ALWAYS a better way to build the mousetrap. It's a humbling hobby to be sure. I always learn new stuff. Sean/ Ninja recently recommended I move ELT525 center channel to slightly overhang stand I have sitting on. I did, much better performance!

Anyways, I think I have already done pretty much everything you mention re: Denon/ Audyssey. I have a real problematic room, & Audyssey helps greatly w/ that (I recently did some DIY acoustical sound panels that help a great deal more).

Auto calibration on the 1909 does adjust/ vary sub volume. On my ELT525 towers, it set speakers to large & xover @ 40 Hz though. Of course I changed to small & I currently have xover @ 80 Hz (although I play around w/ this).

Re: Mactavish original questions, I find soundtracks at theaters & blu-ray releases to be TOO MUCH for bass/ loud scenes, etc.. They always have to top previous releases & I think it has gotten out of hand. Just personal opinion. I dial down sub & bump center way up for much better Dolby TrueHD & DTS-Master Audio movie experiences. And the pictures stay on the wall to boot! :biglaugh:

Announcement

SubWoofer MOVIE settings?

SubWoofer MOVIE settings?

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment