SVS for 2 channel only

[Jason]

Anybody here using an SVS for a dedicated 2 channel rig, particularly the PB13?

Curious as to which tuning mode you run. I finally moved mine up to the 2 channel system late last night, and am having troubles dialing it in. There were a couple of subs in there before (not running stereo), but the mains were running full range.

Now that the SVS is in there, I'm using the high pass on the sub amp to the mains. Something isn't quite right. I don't have the cohesive sound I used to have with the (much) older subs.

Just curious if there are any out there successfully using a PB13 in a 2 channel setting, and maybe offer some help dialing it in.

[Eric D]

IMHO, you should be able to do great things with that sub. So first off, have you gone through this?

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=3418

The only thing I'd add is that once you go through the basics, you can consider something like REW instead of sweeps and graphing.

[Jon Liu]

My system is set up for both Home Theater and also 2 channel listening and I can tell you that for me the PB13-U is one of the most musical subs out there. The sub should disappear completely into the sound stage. The sub location that worked best for your previous may not be the best for the PB13-Ultra, though. You may want to play with the location and phase to get the best results.

Something to think about, your previous sub (not sure what you had) is likely not nearly as good of a performer and so any boosted frequencies are only made that much worse with the PB13-U. With that in mind, you may find that a different location will neutralize and make the Ultra disappear sonically.

Also, sonically, one calibrated specific dB level from the previous sub may not translate and be the same for the SVS.

Not sure if any of this helps, but good luck anyway! Report back to us with your findings.

[Jason]

Eric,

I haven't done any real scientific measurements. I did play some test tones starting at 80 cycles/80dB working my way down to see how much more room gain I was going to get with this guy vs the old subs. (circa 1995 Cambridge Soundworks flagship-a pair of sealed 12's, one powered one slaved) Needless to say, tremendous room gain. Just for a testosterone boost, I gave it some gas, and was around 115-118 dB at 15 Hz...and that's what the shaking needle was showing, not corrected!

With the previous subs I did plot a response chart that I posted here. That is no equalization, or room treatments....just where I felt they sounded best.

For strictly music listening, I think I prefer to tune by ear rather than scientifically.

I think the problem is coming from using the internal crossover in the SVS which I didn't have in the old subs. I'm able to get closer to what I like when I disable it, but then I lose the headroom that I desperately needed. With the crossover enabled, I'm losing some of the perceived quickness and punch.

I'm still moving that huge thing around right now. I've found another place that sounds better, but it's a weird location. In front of the mains (driver approx 4 ft in front of right main) along the side wall. That puts the sub driver about a meter from my right ear.

I just didn't expect this much of an integration problem. I'm not giving up yet though.

Jon,
Aren't you the guy with a few or SIX of these guys? :scratchchin:

[Jason]

Ok... the sub is still in what I'm calling 'the side position'

It's roughly half way in between the right main and my seat, but along the side wall. The right main is about 2 ft from the side wall.

I like the frequency integration much much better. Still struggle with different recordings and their respective bass levels. It's real annoying, but that's not the subs fault.

But now the problem is localization. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear, (used to be principal trumpet in OSU's wind ensemble when we were considered in the top three undergrad ensemble's in the country) and it is throwing off my soundstage. It feels 'heavy' on the right. I know I know...buy another one for the left right??

Still tweaking.....

[TJEli]

What pre-amp are you using in that setup?

-Eli

[Jason]

What pre-amp are you using in that setup?

-Eli

Rogue Audio Perseus

I guess I like it so far. It doesn't have too much toobiness. Pretty quiet....I can barely hear the slightest hiss when my ear is a few inches away from the panels, and that's with the volume knob 3/4 the way up. Amp is a McIntosh MC-2200

My only complaint so far is the remote. It's hard to make fine adjustments. Many times when I have the system at quiet background levels when you tap the volume remote it jumps too high or too low...I'd say roughly equivalent to a 2-3 dB that I would get on our Onkyo 805 AVR. Too macro of an adjustment.

Other than that, it's solid. Supposed to have a decent phono stage, but I haven't graduated to that level of audiophilism yet:hissyfit:

I have never heard the previous generation of this pre, but the guys at Rogue were pretty proud of the new power supply in the 2009 edition.

[Jon Liu]

Jason, I'm not who you think I am. I only own 1 of these badboys. Eventually probably 2.

I hear ya on the localization of the sub. That's the hardest thing about the integration for me. I am especially sensitive about that and if the sub is on one side, most of the time I can sense it being on that respective side. Frustrating as "theoretically" and "by the numbers" some of those places work the best. That's also why I would be looking to get a second one (not necessarily that soon, though)!

[Jason]

Jason, I'm not who you think I am. I only own 1 of these badboys. Eventually probably 2.

I hear ya on the localization of the sub. That's the hardest thing about the integration for me. I am especially sensitive about that and if the sub is on one side, most of the time I can sense it being on that respective side. Frustrating as "theoretically" and "by the numbers" some of those places work the best. That's also why I would be looking to get a second one (not necessarily that soon, though)!

Sorry Jon, I thought you were the guy I've seen that has 6 of them. My listening room is very small. It's a finished room above a 2 car garage of a single story home. One of those small 'bonus' rooms. I'd say it's only 10-11 ft wide. My previous sub location was directly beside the mains, which placed them right up against the wall. This actually helped with phasing, I think, as both the 8" woofer on the mains and the subs were sealed and right next to each other. But the PB13 is too wide and won't fit between the right main and the wall.

Another aspect that adds to the localization factor is the tactile aspect.

Hopefully this will be lessened as we are looking to move soon. We're actually driving around right now, looking at a couple homes. So I should have some better room dimensions to work with.


Also, I'm not sure about the transparency of the high pass x-over in the SVS. When I turn the sub volume down and just listen to the mains, there's something a little off. I wonder if I should consider some other passive design to limit the low frequency to the mains??

[Jason]

I did a little brief contact with DR today via audiocircle. He seemed to think that the gr-research/rythimik setup with be vastly superior (except in total output) to the svs ported degign. More dead space inbetween faster double bass drum lines in some of the music I listen too sometimes.

he also recommended NOT going though the svs as a HP crossover to my mains...concerned about the quality of that circuit in the BASH.

So right now I'm considering going that route.

Problem is that the SVS spend much of the trial period in the HT (where it performed beautifully) and has only been in the 2 ch system for less than a week. Now I'm at the very tail end of the 45 day trial. Gotta make a decision real quick.

After Danny's recommendation to get the SVS high pass crossover out of the loop (said he wasn't a fan of BASH) I call Bruce Thigpen (designer of my speakers) and he gave me some passive suggestions. A 330 microfarad non-polarized capacitor, as well as a 10 microfarad poly or metal film capacitor both wired in parallel and then attached directly in series to the 8" woofer. Gotta get some guidance somewhere on that as I have NO idea what I'm doing there, and help picking quality components.

Right now, I guess I'm considering forgoing the PB13 and going with the sale price of of the rythmik/gr research combo servo controlled stuff.

If I'm gonna send the SVS back, tho I gotta decide quick. It shipped like 42-43 days ago.

[carpediem]

Were you able to ask Bruce at ET, about the possibility of the two different subs? Having spoken with Bruce in the past, I would believe he would give you sound advice.

Had the ET LFT-VIII speakers driven with a Muse160 amp, and had a few different subs in the system, but not a PB13. From my recollections, the LFT-8 speakers had a decent sealed low end. Do you have the 8s? They can be adjusted via several settings on the back of the speaker. Also, I found quite a bit of difference with the SoundAnchor? stands. They also imaged better for me, in my setting by tilting them up some.

[dvenardos]

Is this your sub?
http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

For that price you could pick up two of Danny's sub with that sale. Danny is very fond of his sub and I plan on building a dual since I am 90% music even though I do like my Outlaw LFM-1EX.

Do you know the trick where you place the sub in your seating position and then crawl around the room listening for the best bass response and that is where you put the sub?

If you use a passive filter on the speaker after your amp does that give you more headroom on the amp? I would think that you would need to filter the signal from the pre-pro before sending it to the amp, but some of the experts around here can chime in on that.

[Jason]

Were you able to ask Bruce at ET, about the possibility of the two different subs? Having spoken with Bruce in the past, I would believe he would give you sound advice.

Had the ET LFT-VIII speakers driven with a Muse160 amp, and had a few different subs in the system, but not a PB13. From my recollections, the LFT-8 speakers had a decent sealed low end. Do you have the 8s? They can be adjusted via several settings on the back of the speaker. Also, I found quite a bit of difference with the SoundAnchor? stands. They also imaged better for me, in my setting by tilting them up some.

I have the LFT VIIIa's. Yes, they are decent, but are the limiting factor in how loud they can play. Depending on source material. On some things, like jazz, no problem. I'm able to achieve 105 dB plus (if I wanted to) without them bottoming. But on other material..like Gravity Kill, and Tool....no way. Bottoming at 88-90 dB. Bruce himself verified the 8" is the limiting factor in that regard. Plus, I like a little more low end than the two 8's can provide by themselves

I do have them tilted up, but no sound anchors yet. One of the things I'm happy about with the SVS is it is easy to disable the built in HP x-over. So on songs that don't need the filtering, I gain much of what I was missing.

Is this your sub?
http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

For that price you could pick up two of Danny's sub with that sale. Danny is very fond of his sub and I plan on building a dual since I am 90% music even though I do like my Outlaw LFM-1EX.

Do you know the trick where you place the sub in your seating position and then crawl around the room listening for the best bass response and that is where you put the sub?

If you use a passive filter on the speaker after your amp does that give you more headroom on the amp? I would think that you would need to filter the signal from the pre-pro before sending it to the amp, but some of the experts around here can chime in on that.

Yep, that's my sub. Also, running full signal to my mains, then passing them over passively will not affect my amp headroom. I seem to have plenty of power with my McIntosh MC-2200 (200 x 2) I'm anxious to get the svs high pass out of the way, because once I start to get into the 90 dB range, I'm hearing some distortion type artifacts that were not there when run directly from the pre>McIntos>mains.

And yes, I am aware of the positioning trick.....Have you ever moved one of these things though?? Even considering that trick, my room is very odd shaped, and would be limited even in that regard.



Yes, danny IS very proud of those Rythmik designs. He suspects that I'm hearing group delay issues as the SVS is ported when the ET 8 inchers are low Q sealed designs. He seems to think I would notice a lot more dead space between some of the heavy double bass drum lines present in some material I listen to.

If I'm going to do a change, I gotta figure it out soon, as I've only got a couple of days before my 45 day trial is gone.

[Jason]

OK, I called SVS, and I have until next Friday to make a decision. They are also going to have someone from tech support call me to make sure I've exhausted all options.

I mentioned that I felt the high pass was not up to par for me, and he did concede that the high pass in there probably wasn't up to snuff for audiophile purposes.

I spoke with Bruce Thigpen about designing a passive HP filter for the 8" woofer, and he gave me some values. Then I called Dannie Richie to help with this. Gonna be more than I wanted to spend, but he suggested using as high of quality of parts as possible, considering my speakers and associated electronic. Probably gonna be around $200 for 6 capacitors.

Also, I'm seriously considering sending the PB13 back in favor for the Rythmik/Danny Richie sub (probably 2)

[Jon Liu]

Thanks for the update, Jason. Well, as fantastic as the Ultra is, it's not the "Be-All End-All" solution for everyone. Definitely let us know what you ultimately decide!