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  • Originally posted by Mtmpenn View Post

    There is some logic here for sure, but if you are a vegetarian or keep kosher it is pretty important to know something about the ingredients before you order!
    Agreed. But that low level knowledge only permits low level, low resolution, categorical decisions. And that’s a pretty accurate deception of what we can discern from a loudspeaker via any current measurement suite.

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    • Footnote: It's much easier to build a speaker to the mike, publish, and ship it. Easier and probably, more profitable.

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      • Originally posted by kabin View Post
        This brings up a good points I never considered.

        The ear test is a tricky thing and even audiophiles can't agree on some things. Whose ears and what are their biases, musical interests, age, hearing abilities, etc. The end result of the test isn't binary so no chance of a scientific random double blind study but still the brand name could be hidden during testing much like a blindfold taste test.
        You make some great points as well.

        Not the least of which is that audiophiles, and listeners in general, will literally never agree. So many disparities in perception; many of them in the physical domain. Ear lobe shape, size, and geometry. Length, average diameter, shape of the ear canal. The size and shape of the tympanic membrane. The size, shape, and geometry of the bone mechanism behind the membrane. Finally, the entire cochlea. Literally nothing is the same. There is no “same”. We see this in audiograms. When I worked at a particular theme park that you’ve heard of, every Audio engineer had to get annual audiograms. Though nearly all would mix a show identically (to include monitor mixes), there were obvious differences in audiograms in our group. Some staggering. Most folks have asymmetrical hearing from left to right. I’m fortunate that I still do not. Yet their mixes were never lopsided.

        Then we get to actual measurements. There is not yet in existence on the planet a measurement system or mechanism that permits the real time analysis of an actual musical signal. Or anything that is in the same solar system as a real world sound that a loudspeaker may endeavor to attempt to reproduce. And I’m just talking the frequency amplitude domain. There’s no mechanism to analyze input versus output. We’re forced to peer through the dirty bottom of an old beer glass at reality, via transforms, functions, and other reductive and simplification processes. Just so our limited measurement systems can comprehend what they can perceive at all.

        Understanding that science has been historically very poor at admitting what it does not know, it becomes easier to understand my professional lack of enthusiasm at current measurement suites.

        To put rubber to road, there has not yet been devised a processing system that can EQ, gate, compress, and level manage a single human voice coming through a single Shure microphone into a two box PA. Still doesn’t exist. Add in a lively room like a gymnasium and it’s even further away. That’s one mic, no band, no sound effects... and it’s still literally impossible.

        Not forever, mind you. The day will come. And after that, when music signals can be comparatively analyzed with acceptable latency after they have passed through a loudspeaker, at an acceptable resolution, in a real space (I.e. not requiring an anechoic chamber)..... then we can start making some real qualitative assumptions about how a speaker *sounds* using only data. Not before then.

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        • Originally posted by BufordTJustice View Post
          When I worked at a particular theme park that you’ve heard of, every Audio engineer had to get annual audiograms. Though nearly all would mix a show identically (to include monitor mixes), there were obvious differences in audiograms in our group. Some staggering. Most folks have asymmetrical hearing from left to right. I’m fortunate that I still do not. Yet their mixes were never lopsided.
          That's because the same flawed ears have had decades of experience with the sound of nature. We know it when we hear it.

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          • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post

            That's because the same flawed ears have had decades of experience with the sound of nature. We know it when we hear it.
            I was literally the only engineer that was not also a professional musician.

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            • First post...So I’ve been following along for sometime now. I have been in car audio competition(sound quality) for 20 plus years. A year back I basically retired my Mic and Rew. I got to the point to where I was over analyzing the measurements to the sum it wasn’t fun listening anymore and just trying to impress a judge(or in this case the local forum review guy)

              I guess my point is I’m grateful for companies that offer the in home trial period. After hours/days of research and gathering data I set myself up for failure or disappointment. Kinda like a dating site. Lol. Well that’s another story for another forum. :)
              Seriously though. I’m happier when I find that speaker let’s me have fun. If it has not so great measurements no biggie. As along as it’s exciting and makes me want to turn it up. If it sounds terrible just return them. Sure it costs a few bucks but you never know until you get them in your room.

              oh by the way I prefer a slight 2-4 db boost on the top end...above 4K in case anyone is listening 😂.
              Last edited by Brian c; 01-08-2021, 10:40 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post
                Footnote: It's much easier to build a speaker to the mike, publish, and ship it. Easier and probably, more profitable.
                I think you should devise a standard of measurement, then build most of your speakers to that standard, and then declare them the best speakers in the world and that anybody else who makes speakers is akchewally making snake oil containers unless they’re exactly like yours.

                That’s the plan. I feel like it will work.

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                • All this seems a bit extreme. Measurements are flawed. Agreed.

                  At the same time this is not a total white space.

                  Measurements can certainly provide some insights into how a speaker will perform and I would certainly hope that measurements were used in the design of the speaker, even if the final tweak was by ear or toward some target curve that is not totally “flat.”

                  In a weird way, I would probably appreciate a simple: “we don’t want to share our measurements” more than a discussion on the mysteries of perception.

                  In fact, the mystery of perception is exactly why measurements are useful. Your brain is devious and will trick you into all kinds incorrect conclusions if you don’t keep it honest!





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                  • I could care less about measurements. Get a Canadian distributor. :)
                    Seriously though, it's unfortunate that logistics aren't favorable to a home listening period, etc.
                    But, that would just lead to higher costs as well. It's not truly a free perk for companies that offer it.
                    I took a leap of faith on the A series and love them.
                    My dilemma is exchange rate and shipping, which is not in Jon's control.

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                    • Originally posted by Mtmpenn View Post
                      Measurements can certainly provide some insights into how a speaker will perform and I would certainly hope that measurements were used in the design of the speaker, even if the final tweak was by ear or toward some target curve that is not totally “flat.”

                      In a weird way, I would probably appreciate a simple: “we don’t want to share our measurements” more than a discussion on the mysteries of perception.

                      In fact, the mystery of perception is exactly why measurements are useful. Your brain is devious and will trick you into all kinds incorrect conclusions if you don’t keep it honest!
                      Not to disagree, Mtmpenn, but I'm afraid that while a device may measure well - we always start there - you can hear what the mike cannot. You also have to interpret the data.

                      Those two facts mitigate against both insight from data and data as an unbiased tool. Every time we view data to gauge quality - especially simple amplitude - what we think constitutes acceptability colors our assessment. At the same time we can't hear by the data the many things that actually exist in the sound.

                      Ironically, it's that perception that mitigates against data bias and data marketing, and that is probably why it's not universal, or even in the majority.

                      To get to good sound we'll happily deviate from what an armchair assessment may conclude looks like good sound. Fortunately, listening solves everything.

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                      • Hi Jon,

                        Has there been a sign up list established for the black ash version of the L series?



                        Many thanks.

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                        • Originally posted by Ehill View Post
                          Has there been a sign up list established for the black ash version of the L series?
                          Not yet. We're pulling together some final steps first.

                          Got the first renderings of the deluxe cabinets overnight. Not ready for prime time but very pretty.

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                          • I’ve got my new speaker stands filled with sand and some new 4s11 Canare cables with Furez spades already soldered up ready to be hooked up to some new Chane L3C’s 😀👍🏻.


                            Can’t wait.....!!!!
                            Attached Files

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                            • I hope to share some renderings of the three small models soon. They involve the 5.25" and 4.5" driver classes. Knowing what we do about the L's in general, I expect the three to be in the top tier of anything remotely near their price ranges.

                              We have reports that in direct comparisons to four and five figure boxes driven by top amplification, the 6.5" L class is already way over its price expectation. Given how attractive smaller 5.25" class speakers are all over the market, the three small L models in the premium finish should be highly competitive too.

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                              • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post

                                Not yet. We're pulling together some final steps first.

                                Got the first renderings of the deluxe cabinets overnight. Not ready for prime time but very pretty.
                                Ohhh Exciting What color Jon? Any chance a rosewood or cherry?

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