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  • This preference counts everyone from the late John Dunlavy to Newell & Holland as advocates...
    I knew you were a low Q, time domain guy. :)

    I was thinking about picking up the 2nd Edition of Newell & Hollands book to get a slightly different perspective from the amplitude-centric work of Toole. I came up in this hobby with that perspective, but I have an open mind. I agree that low Q roll-offs have a certain simple elegance to them especially for music. I've built several Qtc .707 subs and modeled down into Bessel territory.

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    • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post
      Folks, this is a good time to ask questions about the first four L models. I'd be happy to tell you all what we know about them in terms of sound, best use, setup, sub integration, and so forth. We can get into how tech and theory play out, model by model, and see how it all comes together in sound in the room.

      On Chane's side we're working on testing slightly fewer than 200 pieces, during which we're racing to post new product pages and wrap up quite a bit of website work. But I'm always happy to discuss sound and tech so feel free...
      Jon, have a couple questions on the L3c. My recollection is that it is ported, not sealed. Assuming that is correct, how much breathing room is needed behind the speaker? Also, can the port hole be plugged? If so, what crossover point between the speaker and a subwoofer would you recommend?

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      • At least as far as the L series is concerned, do you notice or measure any difference with the grills on vs. off?

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        • Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
          I knew you were a low Q, time domain guy. :)
          The idea that all three domains matter rooted long ago, Mr. Vergiliusm, and it has recently asserted itself in incontrovertible ways. At some point enough theory emerges in enough real sound that you pursue their tributary to find that they're also interwoven into all design. Ironically, the amplitude-only camp's observation that behaviors are convoluted per Hilbert and Fourier is truer than we might have thought.

          Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
          I was thinking about picking up the 2nd Edition of Newell & Hollands book to get a slightly different perspective from the amplitude-centric work of Toole. I came up in this hobby with that perspective, but I have an open mind. I agree that low Q roll-offs have a certain simple elegance to them especially for music. I've built several Qtc .707 subs and modeled down into Bessel territory.
          I've seen from your remarks that you know what you're dealing with, and I'd recommend N&H. Unlike the current era's support of The Science of a narrower body of work that's then purported to speak to the whole subject, the former is very broadly based, includes an enormous pattern of evidence from audio pros, and does not introduce artificial constraints like monophonic and very short term analytical listening. It's more generally based in terms of sample size at the same time as it's more specific as to what audibly matters. Very interestingly, as a lengthy interview of professional audio, it also firmly reasserts decades of audiophile preference. Like I said, it's simply a broader, more mature body that relates to a vast pattern of evidence.

          Amplitude-centrism has enormous introspection, so to put it, but it isn't nearly broad or expert enough in real, unfiltered, experiential data to be complete, as least as I see and understand it. It also cannot control for important variables - it compares both technical samples and casual listeners too close to the meat of the bell curve. As an audio editor recently put it, we're aware of all that and we thoroughly regard it, but in the end we're just not that interested in the average listener or the average gear. The high end is interested in the extremes.

          As part of our testing last year Chane selected the L3c to testbed two types of design approaches, We substituted two crossovers into the same speaker - the very same cabinet, damping, and drivers. The only difference was crossover filter, and the test between the two types was undertaken back to back. The first was the typical, approved type popular with amplitude-centric circles. Interestingly, with my having come from the development of the L3, I characterized the conventional L3c as sounding familiar.

          It's an odd word to come to mind, and it was an odd sensation to hear. The sound simply resembled mid-market sound from good but not great mid-market loudspeakers. The sound lacked sufficient openness and aliveness, imaging was down a perceived tunnel, and tone color was clearly impaired. A grain permeated the tonality, and while the sound would easily pass muster in its market segment, certainly including in amplitude-first testing as a very clean, balanced, hifi sound made by very good drivers in a well-tuned speaker, it was also distinctly average. Deeply familiar. Good but without much to recommend it.

          Over the previous four years Chane had worked out our own design types. We found disparities in the conventional technical wisdom, and having come from the mindset you noticed, began to use other strategies. While none of the L models are strictly zero-time, zero-phase types, we are exploiting the driver curves for maximum benefit; or better put, to assert less damage to a more unified, coherent domain response. The eventual, final Chane L3c was, by comparison, delivers a far more open, vivid, authentically colored, and grainless sound. The difference was notable enough to confirm the type and strategy, and having proved itself in the L3, went on to inform the L7 and then the L6.

          One of the reasons I asked for reader comment and questions was to distinguish each model from the other - while members of the product family bear excellent resemblance to one another, their design allows more transparency in each one of them and we can identify where they differ. They're not associated by how uniformly they all fail to get to a sufficient degree of X Factor as much as having sufficient X Factor, they then show how their differences will naturally appear in real sound.

          Thanks for being aboard, V. I think your intuition is on the money...

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          • Originally posted by economyte View Post
            Jon, have a couple questions on the L3c. My recollection is that it is ported, not sealed. Assuming that is correct, how much breathing room is needed behind the speaker? Also, can the port hole be plugged? If so, what crossover point between the speaker and a subwoofer would you recommend?
            The L3c is ported on the rear face (where it should be for a 2-way speaker). So is the L3. The L6 and L7 are sealed.

            The L3 and L3c may be run as sealed speakers by stopping their port tubes. They won't ship with a foam bung at first but probably will in the future.

            The L3 is also a true stand monitor, and at twenty liters internal air volume, a good-sized one. While it'll be casually referred to as a bookshelf speaker, it's not an acoustical bookshelf speaker. A user may plug the port to add it to a subwoofer, but I'd recommend against plugging the port to effectively mitigate boundary loading in tight spaces.

            The L3c is a little more forgiving. As a center speaker it'd tolerate more boundary loading, but it's also well powerful enough to then be used as a main left and right vertical speaker. In fact, as a main left and right vertical speaker it's impressive. To answer your questions, cross them at the usual 80Hz and when close to major boundaried, stop the ports. Use that setup as the default and then feel free to experiment.

            I'd like to launch a smaller model model L2c (twin 5.25") center and LCR model; an L2 (single 5.25") true bookshelf speaker; and an L1c (twin 4.5") center and LCR model. All three have been developed and we're waiting for them to clear prototyping. All three will also be friendlier in closer, smaller environments.

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            • Originally posted by Spidacat View Post
              At least as far as the L series is concerned, do you notice or measure any difference with the grills on vs. off?
              All grilles are as thin as we can make them without them being too fragile for average handling and use. They're magnetic, which subjects them to much less torsion and force then pegged types.

              I don't notice much difference in sound and frankly, never test any model with them in place. All front baffles have generous bevels (and all 700 models have generous round-overs) so anti-diffraction measures are present. Any grille will have some effect, but as thin as these are those effects should be narrow band. They should be relatively inoffensive to the ear.

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              • Thanks for the expansive and informative reply, Jon. I think I'm starting to turn the corner on my POV, and it's given me a new passion for this hobby, which I came back to a few years ago after leaving it for about 10 years. Sometimes, we have to pause and question our assumptions.

                It's been interesting following the progress you've mentioned over the last few years in the development of the L series. I remember after reading one of your posts on another forum, it sounded like you were down the rabbit hole in the design process. It seemed like you knew that there were deeper more underlying principles that the science hinted at but couldn't properly define and couldn't quite explain what you were hearing. Sometimes following those less obvious tributaries, as you say, can lead to a real breakthrough and is part of the art.

                I'm glad that even though the L's aren't strictly in the Thiel, Dunlavy, & Vandersteen etc... vein(first order filters scare me for a multi-use system), they are designed in that spirit and share similar goals. I've never had speakers like that, so I look forward to something different.

                I'm like Fox Mulder--I want to believe. :)

                Regards

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                • Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
                  Thanks for the expansive and informative reply, Jon. I think I'm starting to turn the corner on my POV, and it's given me a new passion for this hobby, which I came back to a few years ago after leaving it for about 10 years. Sometimes, we have to pause and question our assumptions.
                  You're entirely welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here for these explorations. Truly.

                  Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
                  It's been interesting following the progress you've mentioned over the last few years in the development of the L series. I remember after reading one of your posts on another forum, it sounded like you were down the rabbit hole in the design process. It seemed like you knew that there were deeper more underlying principles that the science hinted at but couldn't properly define and couldn't quite explain what you were hearing. Sometimes following those less obvious tributaries, as you say, can lead to a real breakthrough and is part of the art.
                  Given how long we've been commenting and given the limits to (my) memory, I appreciate the recollection. It's pertinent. The original A7 turned into a whole research program and ended up at six combined models and a significant shift in design.

                  Over the past few years we've found a number of holes in the conventional wisdom - as we understand it, naturally - about filters and their actions, and watching solutions to them work their way through a newer theory directly into electro-acoustical action has been interesting. The newer paradigm, while not exactly revolutionary, is more comprehensive. Rather it is comprehensive, and the control it brings is useful.

                  That's not to say there aren't comparable and potentially better grasps of these things in the industry at large, but if there are I can't find evidence of them. The paradigm seems to be amplitude centrism. This leaves us both seeing and hearing the results of another branch of theory, and I find that correlation impossible to refute or ignore.

                  Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
                  I'm glad that even though the L's aren't strictly in the Thiel, Dunlavy, & Vandersteen etc... vein(first order filters scare me for a multi-use system), they are designed in that spirit and share similar goals. I've never had speakers like that, so I look forward to something different.
                  Well said. Model for model the Ls aren't necessarily more powerful in a loudness sense than the As - that should be stated, especially in light of the A's SplitGap drivers - but the added flexibility of their drivers enables their design type. (Same is true for the 753 and 752, although with important and beneficial distinctions. That's why they're so hard to describe.)

                  There are distinct, theoretical levels above and beyond this particular one, but the terms of their deployment - I hesitate to only call them compromises but by your concern they certainly could be called compromises - are increasingly demanding to include. If we knew a particular product would be used for sub-85dB outputs that changes and as things develop may come to pass. But they are incontrovertible demands and they're not small ones because they involve substantial mechanical complexity and therefore cost and bulk.

                  Originally posted by Vergiliusm View Post
                  I'm like Fox Mulder--I want to believe. :)
                  You may find out. I'm speaking from a particular POV too, and whether our work translates consistently or at all remains to be heard.

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                  • Jon you get me excited when you talk like that, now i need a cold shower. I warms my heart we are getting something outside of the the box tuned for musicality and performance rather than simply a response curve. Thank you for making it worth the wait. (I hope I will still be saying that after I listen to them ;}) PS where will they be shipping from? FL, CO, Las Vegas?
                    .

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                    • Originally posted by 1st Time Caller View Post
                      I warms my heart we are getting something outside of the the box tuned for musicality and performance rather than simply a response curve. Thank you for making it worth the wait.
                      Thank you for being interested. We're doing this idealistically.

                      Originally posted by 1st Time Caller View Post
                      PS where will they be shipping from?.
                      From the upper Midwest.

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                      • I'm with !st Time Caller. I get more and more excited the more you post. I'm really looking forward to hearing the L Models blow up my theater.

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                        • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post



                          With regard to the L7 run solo and without a sub, bear in mind that not being bass reflex systems they are at a theoretical disadvantage by sacrificing the usual bumped-up bass filled in by the reflex (ported) function. However they also roll out half as fast, meaning they can pick up room gain, while at the same time as they sound subjectively faster.

                          PS: The L7 is a large speaker, but it's not a huge speaker. It uses 6.5" midbass drivers but those drivers are made by a company that also makes 8*', 10", 12", and even 15" drivers. The L7 is therefore not a 20Hz or even 30Hz speaker, and it will sound lighter than a speaker with a larger internal volume and larger bass drivers, or a comparable speaker with a tuned reflex bass alignment.

                          Early in the L7's design we decided to pursue what research and professional audio experience has for decades told us about very good sound: That sealed, low-Q systems simply sound better. They respond faster - they do not add a one-cycle-delayed port output - and they offer the rest of the speaker they're in a good musical clarity. This preference counts everyone from the late John Dunlavy to Newell & Holland as advocates, and the L7 offered us the opportunity to include it in a pursuit of best musicality. It's a proven, classic design element.

                          This also means that L7 users shouldn't expect sledgehammer bass extension. In fact, even our largest model, the 753 and it's triple 8" woofers, also in sealed mode, do not and were not intended to replace a subwoofer. In the case of the L7 the decision was made to seek either straight-ahead 2.0 channel listeners who don't need the very bottom octave, or in your case, Spidacat, users with active bass systems.

                          What we get back is the little extra clarity and openness the rest of the speaker does so well. It's not a huge difference - I get a huge kick out of the L3 and L3c, as well as the A models, all of which are the entirely standardized reflex types - but for that little extra X Factor, the L7 and it's matching L6 are the ticket.
                          What you say above is exactly why I've waited so long and continue to wait for the L's to launch. I know several people in my real physical life, as well as online "acquaintances" who have shopped for speakers and made the claimed low frequency extension a major part of their decision making process. They spend a lot of time researching speakers, some of which is done online, without ever hearing them, while some is done by demoing. They'll go after a speaker with rating of 29 Hz-25 kHz, for example and I'll ask them how the speaker preforms at the low levels, being curious about the touted low end extension and I get almost the same answer from everyone I ask..... 'I only ran the towers one time without my subs the day I got them'. .....Or, 'I tried them a few times but I like the extra punch of my subs, even if it's only to ad a small amount while listening to music'... I've heard many variations of those two example answers and my point is, so many people put too much emphasis on a speakers low end capabilities, and essentially pay for all the R&D that when into port tuning and speaker box configuration, then never realize any of the "benefit" because as it turns out, they never let the speaker preform in that frequency range, because they have other components that are more capable and do it better. I'm certainly not very knowledgeable in the world of sound engineering and I know there are two channel purists out there who do not like to run a sub with their music, but those people are certainly not the majority in today's $2k speaker market. With all that being said, I just wanted to say that the statements Jon made above, are the exact reasons I'm waiting so long for these speakers. I'm going to pair them with two very accurate, high quality, sealed subs and my L7's will probably never (other than for initial experimenting) see anything below 60Hz. I feel as though the R&D by Jon and his team for this L series, all went into the wheelhouse of the real world freq ranges, I'll be asking them to produce. I figure the very accurate upper bass and clarity from the sealed L's will match up well with the two servo controlled sealed subs I plan to pair with them.

                          I just thought I'd throw my very amateur two cents in, while mostly lurking on the sidelines.

                          Brian

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                          • Originally posted by dougnliz View Post
                            I'm with !st Time Caller. I get more and more excited the more you post. I'm really looking forward to hearing the L Models blow up my theater.
                            Happy to hear it, folks. Please keep in mind, however, that for full-on cinema duty, the big 700 models are preferred. They share all the basic design ideals of the L series, but they happen to use a horn treble system. They'll add a solid 3dB to your average maximum level, and the thermal power handling is higher to boot. The 753 could even price under the L7. Not sure just yet but it's more likely than not.

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                            • Originally posted by BadJRT View Post
                              I know several people in my real physical life, as well as online "acquaintances" who have shopped for speakers and made the claimed low frequency extension a major part of their decision making process. They spend a lot of time researching speakers, some of which is done online, without ever hearing them, while some is done by demoing. They'll go after a speaker with rating of 29 Hz-25 kHz, for example and I'll ask them how the speaker preforms at the low levels, being curious about the touted low end extension and I get almost the same answer from everyone I ask..... 'I only ran the towers one time without my subs the day I got them'.
                              It's unfortunate we don't have a solid metric for genuine sound quality. The measurement-centric pursuit of what we hope is good sound is to a very large degree a failure. It's failed for a variety of reasons, some technical, some rhetorical, and some presumptive, but it has failed except to predict the likely outcome of a very average phenomenon in the middle of an average consumer market using average tech and average design.

                              Speaker specs fare no better. We can't judge the sound of a product from a specs table. Specs appeal to our simplest bias: A claimed number, being higher or lower than the same categorical number from another product must be superior or inferior based on that number. That's a baseless assumption yet it naturally bleeds into our biases without thought or remedy. Given that a single given speaker can literally be designed with a 6dB swing in just one term, its claimed sensitivity, we can see how every other claimed term for that same speaker should be affected. But there's no control for that four times envelope that relates directly to the quality of sound.

                              Originally posted by BadJRT View Post
                              I'm certainly not very knowledgeable in the world of sound engineering...I figure the very accurate upper bass and clarity from the sealed L's will match up well with the two servo controlled sealed subs I plan to pair with them.
                              That's a perfectly valid, intuitive conclusion, BJRT. With common sense like that you're well ahead of the game in terms of real sound quality. Recommended.

                              Thanks for being aboard...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chane M&C View Post

                                Happy to hear it, folks. Please keep in mind, however, that for full-on cinema duty, the big 700 models are preferred. They share all the basic design ideals of the L series, but they happen to use a horn treble system. They'll add a solid 3dB to your average maximum level, and the thermal power handling is higher to boot. The 753 could even price under the L7. Not sure just yet but it's more likely than not.
                                This is a great discussion point. So far I've been inclined to go for the L-Series, but have seen your comments that the 700 series may be the more appropriate choice for HT use. So let me describe my particular situation and maybe we can zero in on the product i should be looking at.

                                I do have a dedicated room primarily used for HT content, however I would also like this to be a space where I can go relax and enjoy some quality music listening. The second part is something I have been missing for a long time because my current system is a bit lack luster in this department. It sounds great watching movies, but when I go into stereo it's just not as impressive. This was proven when I swapped my 20 year old Def Techs with my pair of A1.4s (purchased for surround duty) a few months ago before I fully finished the room. I was immediately astounded how amazing those little bookshelves sounded for music (and movies). Music listening was a night and day difference for me. Since then I've finished the room and the 2 pair of A1.4s are now in their surround locations awaiting their new cousins to join them in the front of the room. I would say my usage will be around 75% HT / 25% Music and I'm really looking forward to enjoying that 25% that I've been missing all these years.

                                Here are some specs of the room:
                                • 15' wide x 23' long x 8' high
                                • 2 rows of seating
                                  • Row 1 - Two seats at 12'
                                  • Row 2 - Three seats on a 10" riser about two feet from the back wall
                                • Front speakers are inside the room exposed (NOT behind an AT screen)
                                • 4 - A1.4s hidden inside columns for surround duty
                                • SVS PB16 Ultra in the back of the room for LFE
                                • 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling
                                • Driven by a Marantz SR8012
                                • While I do enjoy listening to movies at a good volume, I'm not typically listening at Reference Level
                                Let me know your thoughts on which series you believe would be best for my situation. I've never listened to horn speakers so I don't know what I've been missing. Also since I won't have the matching horn design in the surrounds I wasn't sure how well the two would mix.

                                Looking forward to your thoughts,
                                Doug

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