A5 at Reference playback levels

[BufordTJustice]

I'm sure most of you know that it would be wildly unreasonable to call a compact tower the size of the Arx A5 as a "reference level" loudspeaker. Its internal cabinet volume is too small, driver surface area too small, etc. Jon designed it with quality in mind instead of quantity.

However, I just got done watching in the Shadow of the Moon & The Avengers (Both on BD) at reference and above reference and the A5's (and A2 center) handled the task with aplomb. You could hear the A2 straining a little at some points, but my ears were literally hurting during those sequences and no overt distortion or crackling was heard. Just a change in tone toward being harsher and more sibilant.

The A5's did an admirable job of every sequence even though I ran them FULL RANGE. Yes, you read that right. All this with the first-gen Arx tweeter that has lower power handling than the gen-2 that the "c" models will use. So, this just adds to the value of these models. I will tell you that the A5's played substantially louder than my TSC TST-3 towers (dual 8" woofers, dual 5.25" mids, 1" dome tweeter) and the A5's had no indicators of strain.

Now, a lot of this is due to amplification quality being high, so don't expect this with most receivers. Regardless of wattage ratings, most receivers sound strained and bring out the sibilance and harshness of the signal long before they go into full-fledged distortion. However, enter an Emotiva (or other quality outboard amp) and these issues disappear. The A5's LOVE clean power.

The recent NE GTG over at AVS showed that the A5s compared very favorably to many pro-models with horn-loaded compression drivers and speakers with 2-6 times the total cone surface area.

If you're running a receiver, I'm telling you that the benefit to quality outboard amplification isn't only realized at reference playback levels. You'll hear an effortlessness and delicacy of the signal that simply didn't come through with your receiver's amplifier section. I promise. :)

Anybody who uses outboard amplification, please chime-in with your thoughts as well.

[Hyrlyfrm]

I was following that NE GTG thread hoping to see some more appreciation for the A5's. What surprises me a bit is how much emphasis is on speakers and systems that are capable of such ridiculous volumes. I guess I just don't obsess about playing music or movies at volume levels that can cause instantaneous hearing damage. I was hoping for a decent comparison but most of what they did seemed like a high school parking lot shootout.

[gtpsuper24]

Thats what it seems majority of them like. Big loud painful systems, while they might sound great, there isn't really a need to have stadium style speakers in a living room. Its just a fad right now though they will all have something different in a few years. With subwoofers it use to be big ported monsters sonotube style, then Infinite Baffle setups, then tapped horn style and now its massive inefficient sealed systems.

I was alittle upset about how some judged the Arx towers laying/sitting on the floor way off axis or sitting at a bar sideways and then complaining they sound kind of flat? But then they take the time to get the "hotseat" for the big boys.

I've had the A5s screaming at some pretty loud volumes but only with a 60hrz xover and never detected that they was closed to the limit.

[theJman]

Andrew (the host) and I organized that NE GTG, so perhaps I can shed some light on what really transpired.

The day started out with the best of intentions, and specific guidelines on how things were going to be done were firmly in place. I was integral in the pre-event planning sessions, and I can attest to the fact a lot of thought and discussion went into the particulars. It was made perfectly clear to all attendees that it was not going to be a "shoot out", but more like a simple party where you got to hear myriad speakers. Unfortunately, like most things that start out with good intentions it went a little sideways.

All the speakers were going to be subject to the same level matching and music clips. The latter portion was adhered to, the former wasn't toward the end of the evening (you can partially blame the mass quantities of alcohol consumed for the lax enforcement as the night wore on :wink:). After all the speakers had gone through their paces in a controlled manner then we were going to revisit the "painful" ones so the folks who enjoy that type of abuse on a consistent basis would be able to see what those speakers were ultimately capable of. Being that Mark Seaton and Jeff Permanian were in attendance was another reason why certain speakers were going to do a 'second lap'; their offerings are capable of insane volume, yet are still able to maintain their composure while playing at those extreme levels, so we wanted to afford them the appropriate stage to demonstrate that. Better than half the people in attendance enjoy such excess on a regular basis it seems -- and in short durations I do as well -- but it did seem to get a little wild towards the end. In addition Andrew is very prone to that type of extremism, so in deference to his proclivities the limits were pushed sooner then they should have been. Of course, any time you let Jeff have the remote things are going to get 'exuberant'. :-)

With regards to your placement and seating concerns... there was simply no way 28 of us were going to be in an ideal position for every speaker. It's just not possible, especially when you consider how long this gathering was; no one is going to have access to the identical spot for the duration, so variations in perspective are reasonable. Ryan and I set up the A5's, so two individuals experienced with the speakers took care of that critical part. The A5's really do have a bit of a sweet spot, so it's to be expected some of the attendees wouldn't be ideally positioned.

After most of the attendees had posted their impressions Jon confided in me that he wasn't at all displeased with how things turned out, especially given the pedigree (and associated cost) of some of the speakers being evaluated. I tend to agree with him as well; relative to their price most peoples comments about the A5's during the actual GTG were quite favorable. Indeed, some even expressed surprise when told just how little they cost.

[BufordTJustice]

Yeah, I agree about the GTG. The room appeared to be, in my personal and professional opinion, a HORRIBLE setup for stereo listening unless one were to use a nearfield monitor setup right up against the screen.

I also generally agree about the highschool comment. Lots of respectable folks attended and it all seems that they forgot that the Altec Lansing Voice of The Theater was invented quite some time ago and has been able to RIP YOUR FACE OFF using only 15 or 20 watts since before most people at the GTG were born. I guess the high SPL thing really isn't my cup of tea....so it's something I kinda just skipped when people started talking about it.

But, I digress. It did, however, show how the A5's did NOT get harsh at stupid-loud volumes and they did not compress either. Can't say that for one other Tower speaker there which happens to be named after a mountain range out West. ;) That darn thing nearly had the wheels come off from reading all the reviews....which I don't know is to blame on the RAAL tweeter (which has ALWAYS sounded shrill when pushed hard) or just the overall "flat FR curve" voicing of the speaker. Either way, I almost felt bad reading about it.

As far as the Arx sounding "flat" (especially off-axis), that is GOOD and is a sign of GOOD DESIGN. It doesn't do one any good to have a controlled-directivity driver that directs sound ALL OVER THE PLACE. That's not very controlled. I've used million dollar line array setups at very large venues...I am intimately familiar with these types of speakers.....the horns created for them are designed to reduce comb-filtering when clusters of speakers are assembled....and where nobody is closer than 20-30ft from the front baffle. However, bring the user within 10 feet of the front baffle and you now have a very wide swath of excess sonic energy being thrown into the room. Yes, the sweetspot is huge, but now you MUST treat the room with a vengeance or else the boxes can sound like dogsh!t.

The Arx A5s (as with most quality home loudspeaker designs), are designed to control directivity, but also to work with the room to create the stereo image. They are not designed to slam as much SPL over as much of an area as possible.

I've used NEXO, JBL Vertec (with ribbon tweeter drivers, I might add), Meyer Sound line arrays, Cobra Lines, JBL versarray, L-Acoustics V-DOSC line array, etc. I've played them during shows where the program level (slow response on the meter, A-weighted) was over 120dB at over 120 feet from the hung line array. I know what loud is in a way that few others do. Loud is not necessarily good.

My final note on the room at the GTG was that it was not only highly dead, but it was NARROW. Placing speakers right against long side walls is a nightmare for creating a lush, wide, and deep stereo image. When you go to conventions, you will NEVER see ANY speaker manufacturer willfully set up their speakers like this in a demo room unless they made the coordinator angry and got stuck in a closet. This should inform us as to whether that setup is good to go for stereo listening or evaluations....and I think the question answers itself.

Still, the GTG's are great things and I enjoyed reading all the comments, reviews, and evals.



"I guess I just don't obsess about playing music or movies at volume levels that can cause instantaneous hearing damage."

Hy, you said it. That's hearing that they will NEVER get back...and it could lead to tinnitus as well.

[BufordTJustice]

I should also clarify that most of the PA style speakers appeared to have an amazing level of refinement....don't wanna paint them as sub-par by any means. Just a different way to skin a cat.

[Chane M&C]

Affairs like the NE GTG will always tend to seek their own level and certain details will probably always be emphasized at the expense of others, which means that certain preferences can emerge that relate more to local factors and less to individual specifics. I'm not saying this happened here, but we can use the event as a conversation starter.

Acoustical class matters, a point TAI have been trying to hammer home for years. Select speakers class-for-class, in other words, compare 5.25" two-ways to other 5.25" two-ways. Compare 8" three-ways to other 8" three-ways and so on. When I see speakers compared by price or especially by popular reputation or label, as happens a lot, I always want to say something.

The A5 has appreciable output but once it hits the middle hundreds of cycles it is, after all, a 5" two-way and it is not going to manifest the same character a 8" coax supported by multiple 12" midbass drivers shall. It's approximate acoustical size is that of a four-driver three-way using something in the range of dual conventional 6.5" bass drivers.

Venues matter, although I think less than equipment does. In this case of the NE GTG it seems the venue was quite acoustically dead - think heavily damped room, narrow space, lots of bodies, and not too many center sweet spots.

FWIW, personally I would have suggested the A5 be used full range just owing to their having 6x times the linear bass volume displacement of, say, a double 5" speaker without SplitGap, but with fives having about a 40Hz cutoff, I can understand why they were not.

TAI design for the speaker's initial wavelaunch much more than in-room balance because initial wavelaunch is absolutely key to good performance while rooms can and should be managed after the fact. Getting the first arrival wrong but the in-room frequency response nicely managed is one of the failures of contemporary popular audio.

Equalization tells you something is wrong somewhere else. Try and never use it.

An asymmetrical multi-way array - think: a conventional three-way speaker - will always have a tighter axial focus not experienced, for example, from a coaxial two-way, especially one designed for flat off-axis power response. Here, I would have expected each multiway in attendance at the event to suffer to some degree unless heard at some point within that envelope. It appears that all of them did, which is completely expected.

Sweet spot doesn't relate to planar or dome drivers or horn drivers, per se. It relates to crossover and driver topology as designed into the product. Every asymmetrical multiway ever made has lobes established by the geometries of the individual drivers and their crossovers and one must therefore hear them on the intended axis.

Again, none of these are criticisms of the NE GTG, just observations that it naturally raises that can be useful when setting up anywhere. TAI is very pleased to have had the A5 participate.

Efficiency matters. Surface area matters in establishing efficiency, as does bandwidth. This is the big topic, friends. Wow, does efficiency matter.

Note that I'm not saying sensitivity. Some makers have taken to making 4 ohm systems and rating them with 2W inputs as "8 ohm" systems. For consistency you should halve their sensitivity specification by subtracting 3dB from it.

High efficiency, on the other hand, is among the most valuable traits a speaker can exhibit, and while high efficiency from any one driver in a system naturally means it'll have a narrower bandwidth - notice how the really loud speakers in the mix were either not fullrange or had lots of cone area and cabinet volume? - efficiency matters.

Higher efficiency delivers higher clarity.

Here the A5 it seems, being in the range of 91dB at 6 ohms, and having limited bass extension, did not suffer terribly when compared to much larger systems. I understand that physically it was the single most compact system at the event, (and least expensive) and adding in the fact I did not design it for sheer sensitivity numbers but rather for good control and damping, I cannot fault the event's outcome.

Buford mentioned the classic Altec VOT, which along with the James B Lansing Iconic, were formative and formidable designs of over fifty years ago. These 15"-based studio monitors were superb in their day, and while, as Voice of the Theater implies, they were natural expressions of an extension of large-format theater sound brought to the studio, with crossover rework they and similar designs still, in my view, represent a reference point.

Witness today's wonderful TAD large-format monitors and an entire audio subculture that uses such designs as what amounts to very low distortion, very large equivalents of, believe it or not, classic 5" miniature studio monitors. They just sound vastly larger than a set of LS3/5a because they have so much sheer output and therefore dynamic jump.

In other words, efficiency matters, and as I said earlier, acoustical class matters.

Summing all this together, invariably in audio things always sound precisely like what they really are. This is an apparently odd statement until you get to know lots of different acoustical classes and lots of technologies and design methods. Eventually you do, however, come to the realization that factoring in all the variables can give you a perspective that mirrors the result of any one GTG with very good consistency.

The only other thing I'll add, which is far harder to correlate to any set of gear or any one space or event, is that paradigms shift too. One of my fears - this not related to the NE GTG but to audio as a field in general - is that it verges on substituting its own variable standards for the sound of live, unamplified music in a natural space.

In the end, we should never compare components to one another unless we intend to compare something other than that sound of nature. Fortunately the human ear has a natural safeguard against this error and there is plenty of evidence that folks always hear severe coloration and distortion. That said, if we get too carried away comparing loud for loud or speaker-in-a-room for speaker-in-a-room, we're going to lose the point and ultimately harm what ideally should be the pursuit of authentic sound.

[Bandg]

I use an Emotiva UPA-200 to power my A5's with the Denon 1612 as my AVR. They are the R/L heights as designated on the 1612. The A5's really shine with the additional power. I don't always have them running, as the 5.1 regular set up sounds fine for basic use, and the kids usually occupy this room. It has the 70" sharp and xbox and wii. However, when I want to watch a BD or listen to a CD and have a small bourbon, the sound from the A5's and the Emotiva power is nothing short of fantastic, imho.:D I am not looking to hurt my hearing and am only ~12 feet from the speakers and ~13 from the tv, and I get the sweet seat. Getz/Gilberto at medium volume is sublime. Jon has crafted an excellent speaker, and I am very pleased to be an owner. Best, Bradley

[BufordTJustice]

I use an Emotiva UPA-200 to power my A5's with the Denon 1612 as my AVR. They are the R/L heights as designated on the 1612. The A5's really shine with the additional power. I don't always have them running, as the 5.1 regular set up sounds fine for basic use, and the kids usually occupy this room. It has the 70" sharp and xbox and wii. However, when I want to watch a BD or listen to a CD and have a small bourbon, the sound from the A5's and the Emotiva power is nothing short of fantastic, imho.:grin: I am not looking to hurt my hearing and am only ~12 feet from the speakers and ~13 from the tv, and I get the sweet seat. Getz/Gilberto at medium volume is sublime. Jon has crafted an excellent speaker, and I am very pleased to be an owner. Best, Bradley

Thanks for opining, Bradley. I bet that you are enjoying dynamics, texture, and detail at ALL volume levels. Also remember, since the A5's are 6-ohms, you can generally split the difference between the 8ohm rms output of the amp and the 4 ohm rms output for an estimate of what kind of current is available to the A5's. Nothing beats control and headroom. :)

[jnordi]

I run my A5s LCR from an EMO XPA 3 and they can rock. I've also run the A5 mains from a 60 watt stereo amp ATI 602 and never lacked for clean high output from the A5s, I believe it is a matter of clean undistorted amp power that very few receivers can achieve from 7 onboard amps on a single chassis regardless of the powwer supply or how well isolated the amps are, one thing that will be generated from these devices is heat. The new rave is the Denon 4025 driving extremely difficult loads, elimanating the need for outboard amplfication. Give me an Outlaw 975 or UMC 200 with (minimalist design pre-pro) with EMO XPA 3 and XPA 200 for well under the asking price for the Denon 4025, what's your choice?

[BufordTJustice]

I run my A5s LCR from an EMO XPA 3 and they can rock. I've also run the A5 mains from a 60 watt stereo amp ATI 602 and never lacked for clean high output from the A5s, I believe it is a matter of clean undistorted amp power that very few receivers can achieve from 7 onboard amps on a single chassis regardless of the powwer supply or how well isolated the amps are, one thing that will be generated from these devices is heat. The new rave is the Denon 4025 driving extremely difficult loads, elimanating the need for outboard amplfication. Give me an Outlaw 975 or UMC 200 with (minimalist design pre-pro) with EMO XPA 3 and XPA 200 for well under the asking price for the Denon 4025, what's your choice?

I would choose the same as you. :)

Part of it comes back to basic amplifier design. Since most of these receivers use class a/b amplifier sections, just look at their weight. How is a 17 pound receiver, with a laminate-core transformer, and two small power supply caps going to compare to a 22lb Emotiva with a toroidal power transformer (which offers more current-per-pound than a laminate core transformer) and multiple, larger power supply capacitors? The receiver also has to cram-in video circuits, pre-amp circuits, DSP, ADC's, DAC's, etc. It's just an unreasonable expectation that most people who buy these receivers have.

My Arcam AVR 300 weights well over 40 pounds, has a 1250 KVA toroidal transformer, and four 12,000 microfarad capacitors....it's got a REAL amp section. That's why I emphasize what you already know to new members....I don't care how much they paid for their receiver...unless it's a Rotel, B&K, Arcam, etc....you NEED an outboard amp to realize all the potential resolution, refinement, efffortlessness, and dynamics from Arx speakers (really any good speaker).

[BufordTJustice]

Re-posted by me from another thread:

Back on topic. For anybody who listens to FLAC files.......check out this sampler from Audiogon via HD Tracks:

https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=browse_music&type=label&id=479

offered in 44.1/16, 96/24, and 192/24 FLAC files (also in WAV, aiff, and alac formats). It's some REALLY well recorded material. Under $5 for the entire album.

Gitchusum!!!

EDIT: from the HD Tracks page (all downloads include PDF liner notes)

"At Audiogon, our goal is not only to provide a safe marketplace for your evolving system, it’s also to give you the tools to elevate the hobby. This Wake Up Your Ears!!! sampler contains hand-selected tracks designed to aid in training your ears to actively listen while showcasing your audio components. While listening, you may find that you need to make some system tweaks in order to fully appreciate the capabilities of your high-performance gear. Without the dynamic range compression present in other recordings, David Chesky produces high-quality music rich with subtle nuance and emotion that’s severely lacking in most studio recordings today. Audiogon is proud to partner with HDtracks to help you Wake Up Your Ears!!! Happy Listening!

The Binaural+ Series is the first ever of its kind, and is changing the way people hear music on their headphones. The Binaural+ sessions were recorded in high-resolution 176kHz and 192kHz/24bit sound with a special Binaural head (a “dummy” human head with specially calibrated microphones where the ears would be). This technique captures the sound of music as if you were sitting in front of the band."

[gtpsuper24]

I don't care how much they paid for their receiver...unless it's a Rotel, B&K, Arcam, etc....you NEED an outboard amp to realize all the potential resolution, refinement, efffortlessness, and dynamics from Arx speakers (really any good speaker).

I can't tell the difference between the Onkyo 818 receiver and the Parasound Halo A23 amp. After exhaustive tests with content i'm familar with, I can't hear any thing different, nor can any of my friends. The only benefit is less heat from the receiver and it looks cool having a separate amp.

I tried Audyssey on, off, pure mode, direct, stereo, ect and I just couldn't find any thing different in the sound.

I don't have the link right now but remember reading a DBT where more than half the listeners couldn't tell the difference between a $200 Pioneer receiver and a $20k McIntosh amp.

[BufordTJustice]

I can't tell the difference between the Onkyo 818 receiver and the Parasound Halo A23 amp. After exhaustive tests with content i'm familar with, I can't hear any thing different, nor can any of my friends. The only benefit is less heat from the receiver and it looks cool having a separate amp.

I tried Audyssey on, off, pure mode, direct, stereo, ect and I just couldn't find any thing different in the sound.

I don't have the link right now but remember reading a DBT where more than half the listeners couldn't tell the difference between a $200 Pioneer receiver and a $20k McIntosh amp.

Chad, your Onkyo is quite a bit beefier in the amp section than most receivers...and even than the newer Onkyo models. Still, there should be a difference, and an improvement, between yours and the Parasound amp. Also, a lot of this is going to depend on source material as well. If somebody listens to MP3's all day, then they likely won't be able to tell. Step up to FLAC or other lossless file formats, BD, etc and that is where the differences will show more readily.

There are simply too many people who CAN tell the difference consistently to ignore this phenomena.

I know too many people who have run their own speakers on their own cheap-ish AVRs, who bring the speakers over to my place and listen to mine and they sound different....and better. People who are not audiophiles. People whose opinions cannot be manipulated. And this does not make my amp the best thing ever, though it is similarly constructed to the Parasound amp you mentioned (with similar specs to boot).

I would go out on a limb and say that, if you can't hear a difference, then there is something upstream (from source, to pre-amp, to DAC) that is limiting the quality of the signal that is preventing you from hearing it. Also, not every amp sounds the same. It is possible that the Parasound and your Onkyo have a very similar sonic signature, making it more difficult to hear the differences.

As for DBT tests, those can easily be manipulated just as juries can. Because the tests are set-up by humans, they are never truly blind. It's like polling data....the sample is never truly perfectly indicative of the whole. I don't doubt that such a test exists. However, a test full of people who cannot hear the finer distinctions between the sound of two amplifiers of vastly different quality level does not discount the countless, highly educated listeners and engineers who CAN.

I'm reaching for a good way to explain what's in my head about...I'm kinda grasping at straws for now. Have I made sense so far?

[BufordTJustice]

I want to come back to the high-efficiency comments I made earlier and to clarify. I am a huge fan of high efficiency designs....just not at the super-high volumes of some who buy these designs (God bless the guys who do enjoy it). I enjoy HE designs for the reductions in distortion that they can bring, among other advantages. I guess I have gotten past my uber-concert days and my brush with tinnitus has caused me to enjoy music at lower volumes for anything other than a song or two at a time.

I re-read my post about it and realized that I sounded like a damn grouch on the topic, which is certainly not the case.