HT Speaker/Room layout using Arx and possibly mixed speakers questions

[snock]

Hi,

Posting in the sales becuase the "for free" area gets less traffic. Hope this is ok. :)

Becuase of some renovations in my basement I need to get rid of many many speaker boxes. I have up for grabs:

X-statik boxes G1 - these are the boxes used on x-statiks that didnt have removable bases and hence the boxes are yooooge.
X-Voce box
X-LS box
ELT 525T box - "Sold"

The boxes are located in 22152 and I dont want to ship these.
Price (added to qualify for "for sale" section) is $.01 each.

[snock]

Bump. I hope these can find a home other than the recycling bin.

[marksman]

HT Speaker/Room layout using Arx and possibly mixed speakers questions

Need advice to maximize investment in Arx speakers:

Basically I am creating a new Stereo and HT system but wondering where I can leverage any of my current cheap components, at least short term until I can afford to upgrade them; and what near-term investments make the most sense. While I plan to upgrade Juice near-term - I first want to focus on speaker setup and distribution, and then choose the hardware/software to power it based upon what makes sense for the room & speaker layout. Design first, then implementation, then add Juice as needed.


Question Synopsis:

1. Is 5.2 enough? (AVS and AH says No. I have not experienced > 5.2)

2. Should I deploy a > 5.2 system in a 12' depth room? (highs and wides in front, and rears on wall right over couch? or will this just create a mess?)

3. Can I recycle some of the speakers I have lying around if I go > 5.2?


Details - Room, System, and Speaker facts as follows:

- 12x24 room

- 12' deep is the soundstage, 24' is wide. Left side of room is a "T" that splits off to kitchen and bedroom (only relevant for bass discussions I think)
(This is a rental. Not going to deploy sound panels to optimize room. Not planning for future moves/rooms. If they happen; they happen.)


Target speaker setup:

Front:
A5 L/R mains

Center:
A2b MTM

Rear:
JBL 830 L/R - currently my mains - plan to move to rear. (Will this work? Should I replace with A1's? Will it matter? Perhaps only trial and error will tell.) I'm under the impression that the rears play such a minor role that they won't matter much; my only fear is that the 830's are overkill and since I can't seal the reflex port on them - could they possibly be too boomy?

Subs:

2x Yamaha YST 515

-- planning to replace with one large Rythmik (eventually 2x) or perhaps 2 Arx Asub10s if those come to life in the right time-frame.

This gets me to 5.2. Stop here? KISS?

....

Or go 7 to 11 more?

Keep in mind - I only have 12' deep to play with. My couch is about 10" from the back wall.

Should I mount a pair of small sats for rears right behind the couch at head level? (10" deep) Will that work well?

Now what about Highs and Wides?

Human ears image the most in front - and I keep reading that forward high and wides add a lot to the soundstage. I don't have room for much in the way of speaker size, but I have some okay-sounding small HT speakers:

I own a bunch of JBL 145-series Sats I used to use for my computer surround-sound:

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Channel-SCS145-5-Surround-Speaker/dp/B000VZP040

Could these be used for rears? Highs or Wides?

I'm having trouble finding exactly what type of sound/frequency/output go to rears, Highs, and Wides. I've read it is nominal, ambient sound. So, it makes me think the 145's might work out fine. They are fist-sized JBLs that sound above-average given the size and cost (small, cheap). They compare similar sized **** sats, but are much heavier.

If I take 3 pairs of these and place them rear, high, and wide, for HT - will the minor additions they provide to ambient sounds be noticeable/effective?

Or will adding a bunch of small speakers just create a mess? (I am planning to use Audessy XT32 to balance, but this is a living room and definitely not clean)

Open to any input and ideas.

Mods, not sure where exactly to put this thread. Let me know if it needs moved elsewhere.

[gtpsuper24]

Wow theres alot to answer there, i'll do my best.
I would say 5.2 would be enough for most people. Majority of Blu Rays, DVDs, DVD Audio, SACD are all 5.1.
Start will a good solid 5 channel system and then build on it using matching speakers. Arx A5, A2b and A1b would be a great start and may be enough for you and most people.

I would not worry about adding those small JBL speakers. The Arx will probably overwhelm them and they won't even be noticable. Just wait to add more Arx models down the line till you get to 7,9, or 11.

I would really get rid of the Yamaha subs. I would not wait around for the Arx Asub unless Jon releases some info and a planned time frame on when it will be ready. Rythmik subs are good, depending on your budget I would also look at SVS PB12 NSD, HSU VTF 15H or Epik Empire, either of those will be a HUGE leap in what you have now.

[jnordi]

Wow theres alot to answer there, i'll do my best.
I would say 5.2 would be enough for most people. Majority of Blu Rays, DVDs, DVD Audio, SACD are all 5.1.
Start will a good solid 5 channel system and then build on it using matching speakers. Arx A5, A2b and A1b would be a great start and may be enough for you and most people.

I would not worry about adding those small JBL speakers. The Arx will probably overwhelm them and they won't even be noticable. Just wait to add more Arx models down the line till you get to 7,9, or 11.

I would really get rid of the Yamaha subs. I would not wait around for the Arx Asub unless Jon releases some info and a planned time frame on when it will be ready. Rythmik subs are good, depending on your budget I would also look at SVS PB12 NSD, HSU VTF 15H or Epik Empire, either of those will be a HUGE leap in what you have now.

I agree with gtp, a solid 5.1 or 5.2 should do you well for now, you can always add as funds are available, an all ARX setup would give you a good timbre matched front stage A5's and A2 with side A1b's. Epik Empire is also a good choice or dual Legends to smooth out the bottom end and give you a little more output with dual subs.
Jeff

[marksman]

Thank you both. That answers the gist of it. Instead of asking a ton of "what if/about" follow up questions and having a 20 page thread - I figured I'd just dump the info out there and see if I got a "don't go there", which I did. :)

I'm expecting the Arx to make a noticeable upgrade in the sound quality, at least for stereo listening. it looks like I'll just start with 3.1 using the Arx fronts and JBLs in the rear and whatever sub I settle on.

Side note some of the SVS folks left and started this sub company:

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv30

Price looks good. I won't pretend to know much about subs though other than what I've read and what I've owned. Which include the Yamahas; a late-90's Carver Sunfire cube I had; and a custom made box with 3 4 ohm JLA 10w6's and a 500w amp monobridged into them in the early 90's.

I was curious any technical feedback on the Yamaha vs. [anything else]. Haven't been able to get any feedback of substance at any of the shops I've gone into. Mostly I get arrogant lectures in the high-end audio stores, from folks I don't trust. One classic example is all the "differences" I've been informed of between Integra and Onkyo. Being a skeptic, especially about "high end" audio - I acquired/downloaded the repair manual and parts specs for the Integra and Onkyo "cousins" (twins) I was evaluating - and verified there is absolutely zero difference between the two (that can be told from parts list and repair manual). So, if there are differences - I suspect they are extremely minor. Yet I've had a half-dozen sales reps weave me nice, long, fascinating tales of Integra's alleged differences. :/

I have only $1500 into my entire system currently, from Onkyo to all the speakers to players to B&W stands...which is nothing. I understand these boutiques can't make a living off of that. No worries - I just wish they weren't so full of s*** about what they sell.

For reference when I say the JBL sound good at the $200/pr price point - I've previously owned Klipsch and Boston Acoustics studio monitors at 8-10 times that price ( and a dozen other brands) and and had Marantz and Adcom gear powering them. In fact - I went 15 years at once point with no TV and only higher-end stereos for entertainment that were used daily. So yes - I know what good gear can sound like. Now I'm in a place to upgrade and I'm just not convinced I need to drop $3-5k on RBH monitors or Paradigms from Canadia, to get the sound quality I'm looking for. In fact - I have friends that have Sonus Fabers on Mark Levinson gear powered by Naim Naits that sound fantastic (amazing) for the perfectly recorded, reference music they listen to - but their systems actually reproduce too accurately for some of the recordings I enjoy. (not to mention I don't have $120-150k to spend on a sound system, or I wouldn't be in an apartment with a 12x24 living room)

I'm looking for that sweet spot in price/performance that sounds warm and a little bright, images decently, but does not pull out and precisely image every little defect in weak source recordings. Also handle dual-role for HT/stereo. (the Bostons were good here but perhaps a bit too bright, and they weren't very flexible across a wide range of music)

Given the above - Arx reads like the "can't lose" purchase at this price point. I'll let you know what I find out when they arrive.

Time to do more sub research.

[newspeakers]

Speaking of subs, what do people think of the Emotiva ultra subs? They seem to have great bang for the buck if you are not trying the simulate an earthquake (we get the real thing in San Francisco; I don't want my wife diving under a table every time I play a Marvel Comics movie). I want good music reproduction in a 12x20x8 listening room with one 12' side open.

[jnordi]

Marksman, you will have the opportunity to evaluate the ARX line and decide if that's the way you want to go, that's a good thing to start with your front stage all ARX and use the JBL's for surrounds. I think it's important to have your mains and center timbre matched for a seamless integration across the front stage, the JBL's will be fine for now in surround duty. Cost does not denote sound quality, there are two many factors involved, the so called boutique brands for example, there are so many hidden costs and are geared toward people who are convinced they can hear the diffrence in $1000 a foot cables, snake oil peddlers. I personally use Onkyo products (AVR's) and have been satisfied with them for many years. As far as Power Sound Audio, their product line seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck and they have my attention, you could get some insight here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/forum-announcements-news/59537-power-sound-audio-new-sponsor-hts.html

Cheers Jeff

[marksman]

Thanks for all the replies. Helpfully confirmed what I suspected, except for subs where I get lost. As I mentioned I had a 4 figure custom JL Audio box once...man that thing was awesome when I was younger and wanted to watch the beer foam out of people's bottles when it hit. But it sadly wasn't very tight and I sold it to a younger, rap-loving colleague. Not to mention I'm older, boring and domesticated; and like fancy elevator music now; and not sure the SO would go for beer-sloshing sub overkill action.

I'm going to upgrade the Onkyo (decade old) to one of the new NX line with xt32 and run the L830s side by side with the Arx for a few weeks (a/b) and see how they sound. I'll provide a subjective review. Then, the L's will go to the rear (assuming that 27lb studio monitors aren't too much for rear) and the little 145s will get handed down to someone younger building their first system. :)

And yes the friend with the Sonus Fabers had 15-20k in speaker cables IIRC. Something about liquid suspended silver with zero air for zero resistance. His system sounds great on the 20 reference CDs he owns. :) I have 1,000+ CDs and almost 200gb of mp3/4s, and they aren't all well recorded. Per boutiques it's also easy to make a specifically chosen source recording sound great in a perfectly designed room with beautiful looking furnishings and components to influence your experience. But I bet everyone on TIA knows this or they wouldn't be here.

After I lost my last higher-end system to a crazy, hot ex I've been rebuilding slowly, going ID, and often buying seconds (the JBLs initially retailed at $650 - got 3 L/R/C for $400 total as ID factory seconds for example). ID is the future of price/performance AV IMO and I'm excited to support a brand like Arx in driving the ID AV future.

Anyone have thoughts on Rythik FV15hp vs Epik Empire, with the Arxs? Start a new thread?

[jnordi]

I own Epik and love them but the Rythmik's are also awesome, I think either will satisfy. you may want to check these out

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/

Jeff

[marksman]

Thanks, Jnordi. I actually posted a link with a question about PowerSound Audio above. After spending far too much time reading up on sub reports, reviews, specs, and listening to them - it seems it comes down to speed vs. CFM of air movement. Bigger cones = more CFM. Bigger cones with cheap driver/small magnet, and/or not enough power = slow. So, feasibly you could make a big sub fast with a big enough driver and enough power. Likewise with enough small drivers you could move enough air for whatever freq and SPL output you want.

The only question I have is having read arguments that 10"s just won't go where 15"s will in frequency output. I can't decide if this is some inherent frequency issue of a small speaker that I don't understand....or that smaller speakers simply cannot move enough air to create enough pressure that we humans can recognize the reproduction (even in dedicated sub role).

Ultimately I think since the processor I'm getting allows me to EQ subs, and switch between subs & roles - I will probably get a 10" and get a higher-output 15" and play with them and see what works for what. I have seen some high-end Stereo and HT designs where I keep reading they turn off the big subs in Stereo mode. Which makes sense to me. I think I want Sizzle and Boom for HT (and the SO actually likes this) but when I play my John Zorn, Amanda Palmer, or Amon Tobin - the last thing I want is Boom muddying up my music. Had that before. No thanks. Even my expensive JL Audios 3x10" cabinet was not as tight as I would have liked but this could have been due to a variety of factors (cabinet, may have been underpowered, etc.).

I haven't been able to listen to much of the new ID sub offerings since few of my friends have them, so just gonna have to dive in and experiment it looks like. Good thing there is always somebody with no sub, or a really crappy sub that needs replacing, if one of my experiments turns out not to be for me.

[Chane M&C]

I haven't been able to listen to much of the new ID sub offerings since few of my friends have them, so just gonna have to dive in and experiment it looks like. Good thing there is always somebody with no sub, or a really crappy sub that needs replacing, if one of my experiments turns out not to be for me.

My advice? Listen and listen some more - try out as much stuff as you can and develop a perspective what things sound like. If you want call us up about setup each time you switch, but experiment. The difference between very good and spectacular can be lie one change and/or a bit of system setup.

[jnordi]

Thanks, Jnordi. I actually posted a link with a question about PowerSound Audio above. After spending far too much time reading up on sub reports, reviews, specs, and listening to them - it seems it comes down to speed vs. CFM of air movement. Bigger cones = more CFM. Bigger cones with cheap driver/small magnet, and/or not enough power = slow. So, feasibly you could make a big sub fast with a big enough driver and enough power. Likewise with enough small drivers you could move enough air for whatever freq and SPL output you want.

The only question I have is having read arguments that 10"s just won't go where 15"s will in frequency output. I can't decide if this is some inherent frequency issue of a small speaker that I don't understand....or that smaller speakers simply cannot move enough air to create enough pressure that we humans can recognize the reproduction (even in dedicated sub role).

Ultimately I think since the processor I'm getting allows me to EQ subs, and switch between subs & roles - I will probably get a 10" and get a higher-output 15" and play with them and see what works for what. I have seen some high-end Stereo and HT designs where I keep reading they turn off the big subs in Stereo mode. Which makes sense to me. I think I want Sizzle and Boom for HT (and the SO actually likes this) but when I play my John Zorn, Amanda Palmer, or Amon Tobin - the last thing I want is Boom muddying up my music. Had that before. No thanks. Even my expensive JL Audios 3x10" cabinet was not as tight as I would have liked but this could have been due to a variety of factors (cabinet, may have been underpowered, etc.).

I haven't been able to listen to much of the new ID sub offerings since few of my friends have them, so just gonna have to dive in and experiment it looks like. Good thing there is always somebody with no sub, or a really crappy sub that needs replacing, if one of my experiments turns out not to be for me.

You're welcome, as far as listening in stereo mode this will not defeat the sub(s), on your pre-pro or AVR selecting direct or pure mode will turn off the sub, this is a lot easier then going into the setup menu and selecting no sub each time you want to do this. There is a lot of LFE in the 35-80 Hz frequency range, I have a preference for clean articulate high SPL bass without distortion, I'm not into reaching the bowels of the lower end frequency range, but most people are. I agree with Jon, listen as much as possible and then decide what your preferences are, try not to confuse high SPL (loud) with quality, let your ears do the thinking.
Cheers Jeff