ARX A4 Surrounds - Group buy or Pre-order discussion

[newspeakers]

Jon has given me permission to make this a public forum. After the A5 ship, the next product will be A4 surround speakers. Jon expects them to be available in the second quarter of 2012. Prices MAY be ~$349/pr. +/-.

I am in on the A5 group buy but I would prefer to wait for the A4s and not use the A1s as surrounds. Placement of the A1s would be difficult for me and I would prefer the wide dispersion of dedicated surrounds. I am replacing every single part of my AV system, including the furniture, and I expect it to be for the last time ever, so I want it to be just right for me.

To quote a PM from Jon, "At any rate, we'll be flexible and we also thank you for your participation." Ya gotta love the way TAI does business.

So any discussion about A4 design, possible group buys or pre-orders go here.

[ryansboston]

I am in on the A5 group buy but I would prefer to wait for the A4s and not use the A1s as surrounds. Placement of the A1s would be difficult for me and I would prefer the wide dispersion of dedicated surrounds.

I am in the same boat.


Possible ideas for A4 group buys or pre-orders: If Jon wants to be very generous and flexible on this, than perhaps he could offer something like this on a limited basis.. say up to 20 people or even less:

A* For those interested in getting just the A4s, offer a $80-$130 discount on each pair. (Up to two pairs)
B* For those already in the A5 GB that would greatly prefer the A4s instead of the A1s: Instead of getting the free A1s, they get the ability to apply the A1's value towards the purchase of the A4s, get a partial discount (say, 75% of the amount in A* or whatever Jon deems fair) and pay the difference, and shipping. If they want a second pair, than be able to purchase 1 more set of A4s at the amount of discount in A*.
Example: A4 cost $349 - $87 (75% of $116 A* discount)= $262. $262- $249 "credit of A1s"= $13+ ~$37 shipping= $50 If they wanted a second pair, then $349- $116= $233+ shipping.


I think this would be fair based on this is a one time only/ max 20 ppl/ group buy deal, and it is somewhat similar to the A5 deal in terms of percent discount.
Logic:
($249= value of free A1s in the A5 GB deal, or "discount"/ $749 tentative cost of A5s= ~1/3... $116 "discount"/ $349 tentative cost of A4s= ~1/3 ) With the A5 deal, there is also the additional $125 saved if getting an A2.

Since the A5s are a larger purchase, I imagine Jon can't afford to give as much of a discount on A4s, so that is why I said A5 GB members would only get a partial discount if they wanted to apply their $249 "discount credit" from the GB instead of getting A1s to get the A4s. Also, allowing folks (who want 7.1 vs. 5.1) to get a 2nd pair at the discount in A* will allow them to get another discount for an additional purchase, similar to the option of buying the A2 at half off. (Although to be fair to Jon, this one can't be discounted as much since again it is a smaller purchase. Thus the ~1/3 discount of A* versus the 1/2 discount of the A2)


Hope this makes sense, I know it likely sounds a bit confusing. Just wanted to offer an idea of a possible GB/ Pre-order deal that would be:
1. Enticing enough for early adopters to jump on it, review, spread the word on, and be rewarded in terms of severely discounted cost
2. Flexible and offer options to those already in the A5 GB
3. Reasonable amount of discounts so that Jon could survive (given past discount percentage and structure on the A5 GB deal)


btw OP, it would be useful if you could copy and paste the relevant comments on the A4 from the "Sticky: Poll: Future Arx Speakers Discussion" thread. Jon, gtp, myself, and a couple others (you as well) had a few comments there that would address A4 design.

[newspeakers]

btw OP, it would be useful if you could copy and paste the relevant comments on the A4 from the "Sticky: Poll: Future Arx Speakers Discussion" thread. Jon, gtp, myself, and a couple others (you as well) had a few comments there that would address A4 design.

I get your point, but I think it should be up to Jon, at this point, to post his actual plans for the A4, rather than our suggestions or speculations.

[Aus10]

Ah man what a bummer I already ordered my A1s before I even knew about the A4s so now I'm screwed ;(

[ryansboston]

I get your point, but I think it should be up to Jon, at this point, to post his actual plans for the A4, rather than our suggestions or speculations.

I didn't realize Jon was that far along in the design stage already. Excellent.. it would be great to actually get the A4s towards the beginning of Q2 rather than the end...

[newspeakers]

Here is Jon's exact quote, "The A4 concept is strong in the forum and we have a good design for it planned, so I think it's safe to make a public note calling for it. I can probably have it dialed in and quoted in 45 days, so we could be looking at product Q2 2012."

[Chane M&C]

Hi folks, good to see the A4 interest already. Let me confirm a few things:

There is a strong concept on the table here for a simple, inexpensive, relatively high output, on-wall surround/effects speaker with a unique treble solution for the diffuse field. It's based on a lot of existing development, making new development fast and relatively easy.

It does, however, depend on two new tooled parts, making the release date anything but definite. That said, based on past performance if we can make this concept we'll probably be able to do so in/by Q2 2012. Again, this all depends on the two new parts. Everything else is in-hand.

And remember, this is an on-wall item, as in driving screws and installing wall anchors and so forth.

This means TAI is in the position of both soliciting your interest and responses, but with the condition that we can only see about 85% of this new product in terms of production-ready status. We also have the final theoretical design to approve, all the testing, and the prototype eval, which takes the time between now and that projected approximate date.

And yes, we expect to have it online for in the $349/pr range.

[KramerTC]

Jon,

Are you still deciding on whether to make the A4 a switchable dipole/bipole speaker? I know you have mentioned previously that the crossover design was basically done as a dipole speaker.

Count me in the minority that prefers a direct radiating speaker in the surrounds. So a on wall surround speaker that has the flexibility to be used as either dipole or bipole is a nice feature to have. Of course, that can affect the final cost and delivery schedule.

Just asking :)

[Chane M&C]

If Jon wants to be very generous and flexible on this, than perhaps he could offer something like this on a limited basis.. say up to 20 people or even less:

A* For those interested in getting just the A4s, offer a $80-$130 discount on each pair. (Up to two pairs)
B* For those already in the A5 GB that would greatly prefer the A4s instead of the A1s: Instead of getting the free A1s, they get the ability to apply the A1's value towards the purchase of the A4s, get a partial discount (say, 75% of the amount in A* or whatever Jon deems fair) and pay the difference, and shipping. If they want a second pair, than be able to purchase 1 more set of A4s at the amount of discount in A*.
Example: A4 cost $349 - $87 (75% of $116 A* discount)= $262. $262- $249 "credit of A1s"= $13+ ~$37 shipping= $50 If they wanted a second pair, then $349- $116= $233+ shipping.

I like the creative thinking, ryanboston. I think we're leaning toward making the A1's current value, which is $249 or roughly 25% of the deal, the maximum we will offer to discount any such possible future Group Buy or modification to the current Buy.

In other words, should the A4 be available in time - and should is the operative term here - we may be able to offer a $249 discount on a A4 + A5 + XX combo. Naturally this depends on the final A4 cost and other factors, including participants in the A5 Group Buy and the possibility of new Buys, but you get the idea. Much of that stuff will only be known at the time the A4 appears.

You also mentioned the logic of such a Deal including the A2 component. Bear in mind that the reason we have to limit this Buy to 20 is due to A1 and A2 run rate projections through the next 60-90 days. We have a run rate we cannot upset too much if this Buy is going to serve all interests, TAI's included. I can allocate 20 sets, but going much beyond that may short-change profitable existing A1 and A2 sales. The point of the A5 GB is to launch the A5, not to gut the A1 and A2 from within the overall line.

The rest of your logic about the A4 potentially not having the flexibility to GB discount at the same rate, may indeed apply too. Duly noted and thanks for the thought.

All in all a complete set of possibilities, ryanboston, and we can talk them through as a group, which is beneficial to all.

1. Enticing enough for early adopters to jump on it, review, spread the word on, and be rewarded in terms of severely discounted cost
2. Flexible and offer options to those already in the A5 GB
3. Reasonable amount of discounts so that Jon could survive (given past discount percentage and structure on the A5 GB deal)

1. Yes.
2. Within reason and within availability.
3. Very much so. There's a chase to the bottom of the price spiral out there TAI really doesn't want to win at all costs. ;) Given that the costs of specialized Arx components aren't anywhere near the bottom of that structure, all the more so.

[Chane M&C]

Are you still deciding on whether to make the A4 a switchable dipole/bipole speaker? I know you have mentioned previously that the crossover design was basically done as a dipole speaker.

Count me in the minority that prefers a direct radiating speaker in the surrounds. So a on wall surround speaker that has the flexibility to be used as either dipole or bipole is a nice feature to have. Of course, that can affect the final cost and delivery schedule.

The question and comments are appreciated. As it's planned, the A4 is a hybrid of primarily monopolar behavior above 80Hz with a "shaded", diffuse, and probably tunable dipolar fill in the presence region and above.

In other words, what we think is a smart combination of important diffuse ambient fill and flexible user adjustment of it. The user can basically get a tunable ratio of ambient fill to nearly completely monopolar broadband monopolar output.

You'll understand that I can't give details just yet but once components are brought in and testing goes forward I can probably post further coverage. I will say that we like the idea and think it's authentic to the source material, elegantly simple in setup and use, and most importantly, consistent with what you all expect from the line in terms of definition, output, and listenability.

[lingling1337]

So just to clarify, there is no "discount" per se on the A5 GB, but instead the A1 are included? ie you plan to keep the price at $750?

[Chane M&C]

So just to clarify, there is no "discount" per se on the A5 GB, but instead the A1 are included? ie you plan to keep the price at $750?

Correct. Terms are in this thread, plus in the A5's thread comments.

[newspeakers]

Jon, just to be clear for your production plans: I am in the A5 group buy. I want the A2 at half price. I prefer to not get the A1s but to wait for the A4s at the appropriate discount in lieu of the free A1s. Is this acceptable to you? If so, I am sure others in the A5 GB are interested in the same deal.

BTW, I'm not sure I understand your description of the A4a "tunability." Perhaps you can elaborate. Thanks.

[Chane M&C]

Jon, just to be clear for your production plans: I am in the A5 group buy. I want the A2 at half price. I prefer to not get the A1s but to wait for the A4s at the appropriate discount in lieu of the free A1s. Is this acceptable to you? If so, I am sure others in the A5 GB are interested in the same deal.

Depending on availability, cost, schedule, % discount, and a X factor, we plan to offer the A4 as an A1 substitute. In other words, at this time we see no reason not to but reserve rights to rule the A4 off the A5 Group Buy offer.

BTW, I'm not sure I understand your description of the A4a "tunability." Perhaps you can elaborate. Thanks.

I can't yet, but it involves being able to attenuate a diffuse, angular dipolar output from 100% to what could be zero.

[K-Dubb]

Any idea on what the size of these will be?