Receiver-related questions/recommendations for Arx speakers

[ryansboston]

There's been a few questions asked regarding receivers in the A5 Tower prototypes thread, and since that thread is getting pretty long I figure it doesn't hurt to create a separate, dedicated one.

I have quite a few questions myself that I'll ask in one of my next few posts.. feel free to join in and offer your advice/opinions as well. :smile:

I think something many Arx forum members would find useful is recommendations for receivers at varying price points that would be great specifically with the Arx speakers in mind. This would be a good goal for the thread...

[ryansboston]

A few related quotes taken from the A5 prototypes thread

[BufordTJustice] They've been driven so far by an ultra-cheap Yamaha surround receiver from ~2005 (read: bottom of the line from b*st buy) and by my Arcam AVR300 using 12awg pre-terminated speaker cable. While they respond superbly to high current amplification (like the toroidal power supply in my 120wpc X2 [in stereo] Arcam AVR300), they also sound darn impressive on low-current budget receivers and amplifiers.

[Jon Lane] As is noted in the reply above this one, the A2 is really comparable to the A5 in the center channel role.
Both designs are rated right around 90dB, the A2 right at 90dB and the upcoming A5 probably to be rated at 90.5dB. Since the A5 is an six ohm nominal design (with a benign impedance magnitude and phase angle) and the A2 is an 8 ohm design, the A5 will naturally source somewhat more current from a good amplifier to play louder at any given setting on the volume control.
But as Buford rightly notes, you'll just make a one-time adjustment in the AVR to compensate. Note that a lower impedance design, once trimmed back like this, will reach its maximum output right were it would if it were an 8 ohm design.
I'll add here that some so-called eight ohm speakers that are really four ohm designs with even lower actual impedance minimums (something we do not do with our specifications anywhere in our lineup) will start out being louder, but will run the amp out of power about twice as fast - the extra current sourcing inflates the supposed initial sensitivity but uses up the total power at the same proportion, or way ahead of schedule.
Short version: The A2 is the center to use with the A5. Set both to small speaker for HT, and/or let the A5 run full range for 2-channel.

[BufordTJustice] Pursuant to Jon's post above, I run the A5's at 0dB and my A2 center at +1dB in my Arcam AVR-300. They gel perfectly. :)
And, due to the fact that I've got a true high current amp in my receiver and that there is such generous excursion capability and power handling of the ARX midwoofers, I actually run the A5's and the A2's full range for all movies. I've had no bottoming issues even on master and commander, Transformers 1/2/3, Tron, WOTW, etc. I just don't use 'double bass' (where a receiver pumps the LFE channel into the main L+R AND the LFE channel). I enjoy a full and hearty theater experience while my wife is sleeping (I work the night shift) and it gets even fuller when I turn my sub on.

Caveat: This is EXTREMELY amp dependent. If you're running an Emotiva outboard amp or a beefy receiver, you'll be fine to do this after you test it out. A weaker amp section will clip....causing vastly more damage than an over-excursion event ever could.
So, BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF ABOUT YOUR RECEIVER/AMP'S CAPABILITIES.

[Jon Lane] If one speaker is significantly lower impedance, it will source more current (from a good amplifier able to actually supply it) and so will play initially louder. We will say that it has higher sensitivity.
But its efficiency is not necessarily any higher. Click to see what we said about this some time back.
Now some speaker specifications will take full advantage of this phenomenon - and in so doing risk shutting off a cheap receiver or sounding differently as amplifier types change - but it allows them to make claims that the speaker has a much higher sensitivity ... when the actual efficiency is no greater than the particular drivers in that particular box can, by the laws of physics, be.
There are no free lunches in nature - that old adage applies here as well.
What does this mean to you? It means the A5 will be under-rated at 90.5dB if we allow an amplifier to source well over one watt into it when we measure it. On the other hand, if we adjust the amplifier's output not to deliver the standard 2.83volts (the voltage it takes to build one watt of power into 8 ohms) but something lower (so as to also build just one watt into, say, six ohms) we'll arrive at around that 90.5dB rating.
As far as your receiver cares, you'll simply trim down the A5 channels in the settings enough to match the other channels, and in so doing, will adjust its amplifier's output proportionally. You'll use the calibration system in the AVR to, in effect, adjust the A5 channels back down to one watt for each one watt you're sending the other channels.
Just make sure that your receiver choice doesn't have an issue driving a six ohm load, which in the A5's case, also happens to be an easy drive.

[gtpsuper24] Most receivers out there would have a problem with a 3 Ohm load, 6 Ohms is easy 3 ohms isn't. Your looking into this way to much, there is not a big difference between 6 Ohm and 8 Ohm. I have a Onkyo 605 90wpc far from a power house receiver. My old center channel Axiom VP150 was 6 Ohm and it powered it with no problem.
Jon can correct me if I'm wrong but I though I read that the A5 doesn't have any dips below 6 Ohms, and just because a speaker is stated at 6 Ohm doesn't mean its 6 ohms across the entire freq range.
For example the Axiom doesn't dip below 6 Ohms until you try and drive it down to 30ish hrz, the Axiom has a response down to only 90hrz +/- 3dbs.
"Contrary to what the owner's manual may indicate, do NOT set the switch for the lower impedance. Leave it at 8 ohms. Setting it lower will limit the power supply voltage and current, which might cause shutdown."

[Originally Posted by K-Dubb]
I just posted another thread wondering how my receiver would handle the A3s. I did not see this until now. The A5 group buy is looking really appealing. I have an Onkyo HTR550, 7.1 capable, that is rated at:

• 160 W/Ch, Minimum into 8 Ω, 1 kHz, 1 Channel Driven, JEITA • 130 W/Ch, Minimum into 8 Ω, 1 kHz, 1 Channel Driven, IEC • 110 W/Ch, Minimum into 8 Ω, 1 kHz, 2 Channels Driven, FTC

How would my receiver drive these A5s? I read that these can be bi-amped, but I am not even sure if my receiver is capable of that or not. There is not much information out there on it. Thanks for any help.
[BufordTJustice] I would estimate that your receiver would probably be rated at between 70 and 90 watts per channel RMS, w/ 2 channels driven into 8 ohms from 20hz to 20K. That is enough for the A5's, though you would benefit GREATLY from an outboard amp like the Emotiva UPA-2. Does your receiver have pre-amp outs?

[ryansboston]

Quotes from A5 thread Re: bi-amping

[Originally Posted by Aus10]
Hey Jon do you think that biamping the A5s would be worth it? My pioneer can do it (assuming the amp can handle everything right)

[BufordTJustice] My AVR can do this and I specifically asked Jon to alter the design to incorporate the ability to bi-amplify so I and others could take advantage of this feature. If your receiver can bi-amp, I highly recommend doing so.
Caveat: Bi-amplifying is completely different from bi-wiring...which is nearly worthless
Well, let's look at how many watts the AVR provides using normal amplification: It only uses 1/5th or 1/7th of it's total (theoretical) potential.

When you bi-amplify, you re-assign two discrete amplifier channels (with discrete output devices) that just-so-happen to draw from the same power transformer. You are then sending one channel to the midwoofers, and another to the midrange and tweeter. It's not really as much of a question about how much increased wattage your speakers will see as it is how much current your transformer can supply.

If you receiver does well in an All-Channels-Driven test, you will see meaningful gains in dynamics from your speakers and in the overall clarity of the sound. You'll also be using a proportionally increased percentage of your heatsink inside of your receiver's amplifier section. As a caveat, the increased 'performance' you will hear will vary depending on the architecture of your receiver's amplifier section, its output devices, and the overall true current that it can pass to your speakers.

As for the additional volume you may hear, remember that doubling your rms wattage output only gains you an additional 3dB.

Realistically, you won't get a doubling of output wattage to the speaker cabinets. IN fact, there are so many variables that I won't even comment on a percentage of power increase. However, bi-amplification has benefits that I think are worth the cost of two extra pairs of speaker cables.

You're essentially guaranteeing that you're hearing every ounce of fidelity and clarity that your particular receiver is able to provide to the main L+R's. An extra set of speaker cables is cheap insurance to that end.


[Jon Lane] Another theoretical advantage to bi-wring is that it doubles gauge size: You have added twice the conductor size to the cable set but you've done it in a way that doesn't double the thickness of the conductor. If you're using a nearly zero-reactance cable (like our specialized and not inexpensive Slinkylinks brand) this doubling halves the cable resistance without a single negative effect of electrically doubling the construction of the original cable.

This can be important when that ultra-low reactance, should it exist in your cables, occurs largely because of the gauge size and geometry of the wire (which, with Slinkylinks it does, and which is so important to how Slinkylinks have virtually no sound of their own.)

A second theoretical benefit occurs when the individual speaker drivers, together with their crossovers, are electrically connected and grounded physically back as close to the amplifier's power stage as possible. While this benefit is slight and probably immeasurable in conventional tests, it is certainly electrically more elegant - you'd place the individual high, mid, and lowpass speaker crossovers directly on the output stages of their respective amplifier channels if you we building the entire amp-speaker system yourself, and you'd run individual wires to each driver in your speakers from them. It's just a more electrically compact way to wire such systems.

Whether bi-wiring (as distinct from both passively and actively bi-amplifying) adds much to the sound is always up for debate, but when a sensitive listener with excellent equipment bi-wires, odds are he'll report an improvement in general precision in the soundstage and across the bandwidth.

[ryansboston]

Ok, now that I have all that out of the way, I'll move onto my own situation/questions/ request for advice:

I'm getting the Arx A2/A5s/A1s group buy (& hopefully A7 surrounds whenever they come to fruition) and I've been thinking about replacing my receiver as well. I have an old but trusty Panny SA-XR55 receiver. The main reason I feel the need to upgrade is due to lack of hdmi inputs and inability to decode newer surround formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.. I have been contemplating this a long time, and now that Black Friday is coming up fast, I would love to get some advice and input so that I can pull the trigger on a good deal on a receiver and not regret it later.
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My living room is relatively small (~11x14) but eventually I'm hoping to move into a much bigger space and have a larger, dedicated HT. Currently running 6.1 but want to be able to upgrade to either 7.1/7.2 or 9.1/9.2 down the road (Front heights or additional side surrounds depending on the future HT)

Knowing that I'll eventually want a nice dedicated HT, I want to buy components that I am confident I will not need to upgrade for many years. (Hence the A5 purchase) Originally, I was thinking of getting something along the lines of a Pioneer VSX-1021-K, (Was on sale for $300 recently on Newegg and Amazon) Yamaha v867, Onkyo 370.. but am thinking I would benefit in the long run with something on the higher end.. I am still nowhere near being able to make a decision yet so am still considering many different options.

Buford has specifically mentioned benefit gained from having big, clean power "..Emotiva outboard amp or a beefy receiver" and I have read plenty of threads over at AVS and other forums debating processor/ amp separates vs. a similarly priced receiver, but I would love to hear opinions on how much the A5s and A2s be impacted by going with separates vs. going with a ~$1,000 receiver vs. going with a $500 receiver.

One particular debate I am having on the high-cost options:
1.getting a used Marantz SR7005 for about 1k vs.
2. getting a Emotiva UMC-1 pre-amplifier/processor (I know there were a TON of issues, but vast majority have been addressed through firmware updates) and using my existing SA-XR55 as an amp (Via the 7.1 analog outputs) for now and then later adding on an XPA-3 to power just the A5s and A3 and retaining my XR-55 to handle powering the surrounds..
The first option would cost more up front but involve a lot less headache during set up and also normal everyday use... the second option should give better sound quality and much more customization capabilities, and also allow the A5s to really sing when I got the XPA-3.. A completely different
3rd option: go with the cheaper ~$500 receiver, get one that has pre-outs, and use my SA-XR55 just as an amp for only the A5s. In this manner, I would be able to bi-amp since I'm not using the other channels (Per the manual)

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A few of my concerns/thoughts: (Sorry in advance, I know answers to some of this should be obvious)

-On having separates: I know the simplest would be to just have UMC-1 and a XPA-5 and call it a day, but since I would have a mix of equipment if I wanted to retain the SA-XR55 to use (As an amp) for surrounds, how would volume control work?.. IE, would I need to change volume on both the UMC-1 AND XR55?

-Likewise, if I went with the 3rd option: would I need to change volume on both the $500 receiver AND XR55? That would be extremely inconvenient for day to day use...

-Right now I typically don't watch movies "VERY" loud.. maybe ~-25 to -35db.. although I may watch a little bit louder in a larger space, I just don't see myself cranking the volume up super loud like some do in the forums... I know that even at lesser volume levels, "clean" power that you could get from having separates vs. all in one still affects SQ to a degree, but how noticeable is it?

-Auto-calibration: MCACC, Audessy, Emo-Q, etc.. I would like for this to work pretty well out of the box and be able to tweak settings later.. I know within Audessy there's XT, and XT32, etc. and many say with each level up it is much better... For Emo-Q it doesn't seem to work that great, but it is much more customizable in every regard..

-"Air-play" capability- Being able to stream and control songs from an IPad, IPod, or IPhone (I would love to be able to do this)...I know most of the Pioneers will have this but as far as other receivers go, some offer bluetooth receiver add-ons, and some claim airplay capability but in reviews users give bad feedback re: that capability..
I don't want to have to connect a usb cable, it is so much more convenient to be able to stream and control wirelessly sometimes.. anybody have experience doing this with other-branded receivers?


Appreciate any input /advice.. lots of info to digest and think about, so it can be overwhelming.

[BufordTJustice]

Ryan, Great posts! Thank you for collecting all that stuff...I'm far too lazy to spend that much time cutting and pasting. I'll post on this after I get off shift tonight (3am or later).

For the record, I've since scaled-back my A2 as center with the A5's. I'm now at unity gain (0dB, not plus or minus) across the front three channels. I actually angled the A2 down a smidge so that the tweeter is better aligned with my seating position and it now sounds even better and smoother. It really is a good match.

I'll post more later. I'm sure Jon and others will chime-in soon. These are all great questions...this should be a great thread. :)

[Aus10]

I have a few audio questions...
1. I set the crossover to 50hz on my receiver and then set the crossover on my sub to that. Now my sub does almost nothing? It puts out a little bit of sound but not nearly as much as before. I was watching Daybreakers last night and i couldnt tell if it was on or off. Any advice on this? Should i go back to 80hz?
2. This drives me crazy it will be a talking part of a movie so i turn it up to hear them talk and then some action part comes up and it is really loud and i am always having to adjust the volume. How do i fix that? Can i fix it?
3. When I am watching recorded movies on my AT&T cable i have to have it at like -2 -8 to be able to hear it pretty well. That is to me a moderate volume but as soon as a commercial comes on its redicules (Sp?) loud... Can that be fixed?

Thank you guys..

[gtpsuper24]

1. Yes you can set the sub to 80hrz and still keep the speakers at 50hrz, thats how I have mine setup. Works great.
2. You can run your center channel "hot" compared to the other speakers, just bump up the centers independent volume, a few notches.
3. I know some receivers have whats called dynamic range control that is suppose to help with the volume differences. Check your receivers manual to see if it has something similar.

[gtpsuper24]

One particular debate I am having on the high-cost options:
1.getting a used Marantz SR7005 for about 1k vs.
2. getting a Emotiva UMC-1 pre-amplifier/processor (I know there were a TON of issues, but vast majority have been addressed through firmware updates) and using my existing SA-XR55 as an amp (Via the 7.1 analog outputs) for now and then later adding on an XPA-3 to power just the A5s and A3 and retaining my XR-55 to handle powering the surrounds..
The first option would cost more up front but involve a lot less headache during set up and also normal everyday use... the second option should give better sound quality and much more customization capabilities, and also allow the A5s to really sing when I got the XPA-3.. A completely different
3rd option: go with the cheaper ~$500 receiver, get one that has pre-outs, and use my SA-XR55 just as an amp for only the A5s. In this manner, I would be able to bi-amp since I'm not using the other channels (Per the manual)

I myself would go with option 1. Get a receiver that has the power your wanting and feature set. If your wanting Marantz get something like the 5006, its cheaper, has all the same features of the 7005 just 20watts less per channel. It has preouts so you can hook up amps later. I think a good quality receiver is all you need, I would ditch the XR55, I wouldn't try to have it running in your setup. I've never noticed any difference in SQ at lower levels with dedicated amps vs receiver (good quality). Amps are really only going to benefit if your receiver runs out of juice at reference levels or higher, or you want to run full range towers at loud levels, which I wouldn't recommend. The 5.25" split gaps are great, but not like a well placed quality subwoofer. Let the subwoofer do the really deep stuff.

If you really want good sound quality, room treatments are the way to go. They will make a much bigger difference than 200+watt amps. Something like Gik tri traps in the corners and a few panels to tame any slap echo and reflection points. Thats what makes bass drum kicks "tigher" soundings and what makes the highs crisper and more accurate.

[K-Dubb]

Great thread.

I believe I have decided on the Onkyo nr809 for powering these A5s along with the rest of my 5.1 setup. Do you think this receiver is sufficient enough for the task?

[ryansboston]

Thanks for your input gtp; I will definitely look at room treatments but would like to upgrade my receiver first. I have started leaning more heavily towards a good receiver over getting separates. The SR7005 is back up in price so if I went with Marantz, I would possibly take your advice and go with the SR6005 and get the $99 Apple tv device to compensate for lack of airplay/networking capability on it.

There were lots of great deals on receivers came in the past week.. the Pioneer 1121 @$400, Onkyo nr809 @$649, Yamaha RX A-3000 @$899 at newegg were all very tempting.. I even hunted around some best buys for open box Pioneer Elite SC-37, (typically around $900 but w/o remote or set up mic) which also had generally great reviews.. however have yet to pull the trigger.

Over at AVS, I PM'd a guy who sold his Marantz SR7005 and got a Denon 4311ci, and he thought the 4311ci was definitely worth the $500 premium... he really liked the Multi EQ XT32. I read up on that Audyssey tech and among other features, it has the ability to EQ two subs pretty accurately-which is enticing. In general, I really appreciate knowing that the auto-calibration is going to do a pretty good job, with just some minor fine-tuning required.. no need for countless hours to get everything adjusted. The 4311ci also has more internal amps if I wanted to have front heights eventually so it seems much more future-proof overall. However, it brings the price up to ~$1,200 even for a refurbished unit.. (~$2100 new)


I know the price range I'm looking at varies quite a lot ($400-$1,200) but I think with the right feature set, the cost premium can definitely be worth it. I welcome your thoughts and opinions on this..

Folks in general recommend putting in a lot more money towards your speakers than your receiver. (Budget 2/3 for-speakers, 1/3 for receiver) However I think the A2/A5s/ A1s (perhaps later replaced by the tentative A4 surrounds) are worth A LOT more than the actual cost to us in comparison to other speakers at this price range.. Therefore I'd like to do them justice by matching them to a really nice receiver. (Already have a phenomenal sub)

[Aus10]

I own the 1121 and for the $430 i paid i am really happy with it. Does everything and more for me only been having small issues setting it up. But im a audio noob so its prolly user faults...

I told john i wanted on the group buy for the A4s and i would run my A2 has a center. The A5s as front R/L, the A1s as side speakers and mount the A4s on the wall behind me, end up running 7.2 in a bedroom that is 11X13 lol i need room treatments though..

[D'Argo]

ryansboston, quick question--have you auditioned the below receivers? I read on the AVSforum that the Marantz have a "warmer" sound compared to the others. I'm just curious if they will make a difference with the Arx sound. I remember Jon mentioned something about having good sources. I also plan to upgrade my receiver later on (I'm currently using an entry-level receiver from my HTIB). The Arx still sounds awesome though and I don't plan to upgrade the receiver until I move to a bigger place (and need more watts). I haven't had the opportunity to play with Audyssey or PL IIz. Is the approach still to work on mechanical (placement/treatment) correction before electronic correction? I appreciate everyone's inputs and the knowledge gained through this forum.

Thanks for your input gtp; I will definitely look at room treatments but would like to upgrade my receiver first. I have started leaning more heavily towards a good receiver over getting separates. The SR7005 is back up in price so if I went with Marantz, I would possibly take your advice and go with the SR6005 and get the $99 Apple tv device to compensate for lack of airplay/networking capability on it.

There were lots of great deals on receivers came in the past week.. the Pioneer 1121 @$400, Onkyo nr809 @$649, Yamaha RX A-3000 @$899 at newegg were all very tempting.. I even hunted around some best buys for open box Pioneer Elite SC-37, (typically around $900 but w/o remote or set up mic) which also had generally great reviews.. however have yet to pull the trigger.

Over at AVS, I PM'd a guy who sold his Marantz SR7005 and got a Denon 4311ci, and he thought the 4311ci was definitely worth the $500 premium... he really liked the Multi EQ XT32. I read up on that Audyssey tech and among other features, it has the ability to EQ two subs pretty accurately-which is enticing. In general, I really appreciate knowing that the auto-calibration is going to do a pretty good job, with just some minor fine-tuning required.. no need for countless hours to get everything adjusted. The 4311ci also has more internal amps if I wanted to have front heights eventually so it seems much more future-proof overall. However, it brings the price up to ~$1,200 even for a refurbished unit.. (~$2100 new)


I know the price range I'm looking at varies quite a lot ($400-$1,200) but I think with the right feature set, the cost premium can definitely be worth it. I welcome your thoughts and opinions on this..

Folks in general recommend putting in a lot more money towards your speakers than your receiver. (Budget 2/3 for-speakers, 1/3 for receiver) However I think the A2/A5s/ A1s (perhaps later replaced by the tentative A4 surrounds) are worth A LOT more than the actual cost to us in comparison to other speakers at this price range.. Therefore I'd like to do them justice by matching them to a really nice receiver. (Already have a phenomenal sub)

[gtpsuper24]

Proper placement comes first, the main L/R/C is fairly easy. If you have just a single seat or main listening spot, you want to toe the mains inward untill you can't see the sides to the L/R mains looking at them. Do subwoofer crawl to help with subwoofer placement.

After placement would be to level match your speakers and subwoofer(s) with an Radio Shack SPL meter, atleast thats what I did. Electronic EQ is only good for the "Sweet Spot" not for multiple seats. I'm not a fan of the auto EQs I rather spend the time and money of room treatments. I like to fix the room first, not EQ the speakers to match a bad room, if that makes sense. Its usually the room that causes the subwoofer not to have that "impact" or "punchiness". Or the mains to have a harsh or bright sound to them or ringing sound. Stand in your room and clap, if it echos a panel or two mounted on the ceiling above the LP or a panel on the side walls will help. If the clap echos so does your speakers.

[Aus10]

Proper placement comes first, the main L/R/C is fairly easy. If you have just a single seat or main listening spot, you want to toe the mains inward untill you can't see the sides to the L/R mains looking at them. Do subwoofer crawl to help with subwoofer placement.

After placement would be to level match your speakers and subwoofer(s) with an Radio Shack SPL meter, atleast thats what I did. Electronic EQ is only good for the "Sweet Spot" not for multiple seats. I'm not a fan of the auto EQs I rather spend the time and money of room treatments. I like to fix the room first, not EQ the speakers to match a bad room, if that makes sense. Its usually the room that causes the subwoofer not to have that "impact" or "punchiness". Or the mains to have a harsh or bright sound to them or ringing sound. Stand in your room and clap, if it echos a panel or two mounted on the ceiling above the LP or a panel on the side walls will help. If the clap echos so does your speakers.

Can you link either a kit or like a set of panels for a smaller room?

Thank you. I have looked around but I don't know what I need. Bass traps or what..

[ryansboston]

Great thread.

I believe I have decided on the Onkyo nr809 for powering these A5s along with the rest of my 5.1 setup. Do you think this receiver is sufficient enough for the task?

K-Dubb, IMO that receiver should do a decent job. It was on my list for consideration. I would imagine it would be a pretty nice upgrade from the Onkyo HTR550 you mentioned in one of your prior posts.. The 809 weighs 40-something lbs.. very solidly built. It's mfr power rating is 135w x7 (Although actual power is less, the amps are quality and still provides plenty of power) Has lots of the newer bells and whistles- Audyssey's MultEQ XT advanced automated calibration, Pandora, network & DLNA support, HQV Vida VHD1900 in addition to Qdeo technology by Marvell, nice Burr-Brown DACs, etc.

My biggest concern is that in general, Onkyo's usually run hotter than other brands.. Onkyo's had reliability issues in the past, but more so with their -08 series from what I've read. There are also plenty of people who love their Onkyos.. I think as long as you have plenty of space for the receiver where there will be good airflow it should be fine. If it's going in a cabinet or anything with restricted airflow I would get a different brand.. just my 2 cents.