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  • #61
    Originally posted by Jon Lane
    Noted, although the A5 was a unique situation, and movement from this point should be substantially faster.
    Sooner the better. I can't wait for an Arx subwoofer really like the idea of the 24" cube 12" splitgap + passives. Now that I though about it, its probably easier to get a subwoofer designed built than 3 way towers and surrounds.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by K-Dubb
      What are you thinking Jon? A 15" or larger?
      Yes, and possibly a small series of models.

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      • #63
        Well this is very exciting!

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        • #64
          Sounds good, Jon. Will this sub have the tactile feel as well? Sorry for the question. My experience with good subs is very limited. I'm not sure if this is what "a good extension" means. I was wondering if high SPLs are really necessary to get the tactile experience. Browsing the forums and seeing multiple subs in living rooms makes me wonder how loud the subs can be played without neighbors complaining. I want to experience the very good SQ and tactile feel of the sub while playing movies but do not need the ear bleeding levels.

          On a side note, I read posts in other forums regarding measurements from a person named Ricci. He seems well respected in the field and I think he's associated with Audioholics. He measured CHT's VS.18.1 sub. The results are published in CHT's forum but was not published in Audioholics (as agreed with CHT). His measurements of different subs and drivers are also found in http://www.data-bass.com/systems (for those that are interested). Not sure if Ricci can measure TAI's sub offerings in the future?

          Originally posted by Jon Lane
          Summarizing Buford, D'Argo, and K-Dubb, it seems we're looking at a class of low frequency system with very good SQ, plus strong output and good extension. It's affordable too, provided we don't expect 18Hz and 120dB, which calls for a refrigerator if we're really going to honor the SQ aspect of the design. This is good news. Theoretically we could be looking at and listening to something like this in 90 days, actually. Let me see what we can do.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by gtpsuper24
            Sooner the better. I can't wait for an Arx subwoofer really like the idea of the 24" cube 12" splitgap + passives. Now that I though about it, its probably easier to get a subwoofer designed built than 3 way towers and surrounds.
            It's a feasible product and actually the design is done and ready to go - we could have them in 90 days. I believe you saw the modeled performance (which in a lot of ways is more useful than measured performance, believe it or not) and it's a serious contender for the ~$1k category in big bass. It goes loud and deep, hits hard, and you can put a potted plant on it and slide it past the WAF.

            The only question is if the world needs another loud, deep, hard, WAF-approved 1kW, ~$1k subwoofer. Don't get me wrong - if you all want it, we'll make 'em. We just have parallel ideas to explore too.

            As a sidebar note, I really didn't know what to think when I opened the design discussions to the public, but I'm liking it so far. From our open discussions we've settled on an A4, and this model continues to seem essential to the line. Should a 12"x3, 1kW, $1k sub pass public muster, we'll make it.

            PS: Let me extend a personal thanks, gtpsuper, for your enthusiasm and advocacy. We at TAI appreciate it and hope we can continue to serve you and our other friends. The A5 was an extended project for many reasons, but things will move faster in 2012.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by D'Argo
              Sounds good, Jon. Will this sub have the tactile feel as well?
              I'd expect it - our alternative designs are in that camp, as opposed to the usual big fat sound of so many popular subs.

              Originally posted by D'Argo
              I'm not sure if this is what "a good extension" means.
              In that context I meant good low bass extension as opposed to an emphasis on bass extension, which radically changes other elements of the design and with them, the sound. Everything is a trade-off, and we have to have good cause to trade X for Y.

              It's not uncommon to assess bass systems by simple numbers such as loudness vs frequency, F3 ratings, and electrical power. There is no way to assess how something sounds (factoring by ear what is technically system Q, damping, group delay, filter ripple, ringing, etc.) except to actually try it out, an expensive proposition for the user (and an impossible one for a specific manufacturer). The current buying trend is to assess by sheer bass muscularity and to select the biggest, loudest, and only then the most value-centric bass system products.

              Our goal at TAI would be to offer an alternative to this trend. Whether this is smart business remains to be seen, and I don't want to either simply criticize all the work and competitiveness going on out there in making and marketing these relatively affordable big bass systems, but I do believe there is room for alternatives, and with them, fresh thinking.

              Originally posted by D'Argo
              I was wondering if high SPLs are really necessary to get the tactile experience.
              To a degree, yes, although another component is low in-room distortion, and by "distortion" I mean a balanced factoring of those other parameters I listed above.

              Originally posted by D'Argo
              Browsing the forums and seeing multiple subs in living rooms makes me wonder how loud the subs can be played without neighbors complaining. I want to experience the very good SQ and tactile feel of the sub while playing movies but do not need the ear bleeding levels.
              Exactly, and I suspect this is ultimately what the market needs. Whether it realizes it wants it is the question. ;)

              Originally posted by D'Argo
              On a side note, I read posts in other forums regarding measurements from a person named Ricci. He seems well respected in the field and I think he's associated with Audioholics. He measured CHT's VS.18.1 sub. The results are published in CHT's forum but was not published in Audioholics (as agreed with CHT). His measurements of different subs and drivers are also found in http://www.data-bass.com/systems (for those that are interested). Not sure if Ricci can measure TAI's sub offerings in the future?
              Perhaps, although at the risk of making an uninformed criticism of that work, I wouldn't expect to either select a sub based on those rather dimensionless numbers, nor would TAI want to design products to beat the contenders just by those numbers. I suspect the 12"x3 1kW cube we've been talking about would rank well, but other concepts simply shouldn't and wouldn't compete just by those numbers.

              Above I mentioned that modeled bass systems could be a more useful criteria for assessing them than measured results. My point is that a modeled system - basically a sophisticated simulation that provides us a predicted range of performance - can give us a powerful perspective on just what's going on in the system at the core level, from the acoustical to the electronic to the mechanical parameters that define the system's behavior and limits.

              As an analogy, consider that we could have a pair of drag cars that post quarter mile times and speeds within say 10% of one another. We might conclude that for the purposes of elapsed time (what wins or loses drag races) one car was wholly superior to the other. The other may actually be a superior automobile in literally every other aspect, but would lose out in a narrow evaluation such as a single quarter mile drag race.

              Likewise, in any one table of simple performance numbers one bass system will probably win out. My point is that one system could easily be the poorest sounding product in the contest, and that a deeper understanding of the entire range of parameters would likely paint an entirely different picture.

              It's elsewhere in this universe of bass parameters we'd like to head. We have reason to believe we could offer simply better sound.

              MORE: Not so incidentally, Swan is showing some interesting pro products now that may include some large-format, high-sensitivity woofer systems. We've been looking into them and may have more alternatives for 2012 than we'd planned. Stay tuned...

              Comment


              • #67
                I think a strong competive lineup of subwoofers could also bring more people looking at the other speakers in Arx lineup. Some people are picky when it comes to products being offered, even though a subwoofer doesn't have to match a system, theres some that will want a subwoofer of the same brand. With the A4 possibly being offered and a subwoofer lineup I think the other models will get more attention. I wonder how many have looked at Arx and decided not to purchase due to no surround model and/or subwoofers, and went on looking at other brands that offers the whole package?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Jon Lane
                  There is no way to assess how something sounds (factoring by ear what is technically system Q, damping, group delay, filter ripple, ringing, etc.) except to actually try it out, an expensive proposition for the user (and an impossible one for a specific manufacturer).
                  Jon, yes; unfortunately I'm not in a financial position to try out the different subs at the ~$1k level. The AVS folks created a thread where follow enthusiasts can demo their subs. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...t-1354149.html. Maybe some of the folks here are part of this list or are open to this concept.

                  Originally posted by Jon Lane
                  The current buying trend is to assess by sheer bass muscularity and to select the biggest, loudest, and only then the most value-centric bass system products.
                  Correct. I've been reading about this advise in the other forums as well--"Buy the biggest, loudest sub that you can afford."

                  Originally posted by Jon Lane
                  Our goal at TAI would be to offer an alternative to this trend. Whether this is smart business remains to be seen, and I don't want to either simply criticize all the work and competitiveness going on out there in making and marketing these relatively affordable big bass systems, but I do believe there is room for alternatives, and with them, fresh thinking.
                  Thank you for providing alternatives to this trend. I guess based on the other reviews, the characteristics of the sound of different subs reviewed were described as being "different." Maybe we can see a Market Correction when people start to demo the TAI sub offerings and realize the better sound TAI offers.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by D'Argo
                    Correct. I've been reading about this advise in the other forums as well--"Buy the biggest, loudest sub that you can afford."

                    Thank you for providing alternatives to this trend.
                    I think I am atypical, but I'd just like to say that I want the smallest, cleanest, most musical sub that can also enhance the HT experience. I don't believe that that the louder of two subs is necessarily the better sub. That's like saying that the brightest TV has the best picture quality. It just isn't true.

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                    • #70
                      Excellent point. I love a killer 15 ( JBL MK15gti mkii is one of the best ), but I also like what can be done with smaller boxes and the use of passive radiators tuned low. I don't like boomy. I want accurate and SQ oriented.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Zac911
                        Excellent point. I love a killer 15 ( JBL MK15gti mkii is one of the best ), but I also like what can be done with smaller boxes and the use of passive radiators tuned low. I don't like boomy. I want accurate and SQ oriented.
                        This one claims to be one of the lowest distortion 18" drivers out there: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-666

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by D'Argo
                          This one claims to be one of the lowest distortion 18" drivers out there: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=293-666

                          I think that is probably one of the better subs you can buy. Man if it could perform close to that thing with less power that would really be something.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by K-Dubb
                            I think that is probably one of the better subs you can buy. Man if it could perform close to that thing with less power that would really be something.
                            Yes, K-Dubb. Did you see the size of the driver on the video?

                            I think I remember reading in the CHT forum that the driver they use is better than this one (compared using XMech specs). What about if this 18" driver is used with a couple of 18" passives such as http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...Number=293-684 in a cube under 24"? :eek:

                            Talking about efficiency, I saw a design for a folded horn (36" x 36" x 24"). http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html It uses a 15" driver and can hit 100 dB @ 20 Hz using amps that are only 50-100 W! I saw that there is a company in Ebay that builds this design for about $1,500 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/InfraCoustik...-/260745414739).

                            Here's the build from the AH forum (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...fer-build.html).
                            This may be one the designs Jon mentioned before (art vs. raw power). I read that this design uses the advantages of physics to work with you vs. against you; thus only low amplification is needed to achieve the results. The box is pretty big though but comparable to the subs today (40" x 22" x 22").

                            I don't have experiences with horn subs. Maybe someone can comment on their sound quality vs. sealed subs and other designs? I did read in one of the forums that they sounded pretty good. Anyway, I'm just reporting on what's out there in the market.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by D'Argo
                              I don't have experiences with horn subs. Maybe someone can comment on their sound quality vs. sealed subs and other designs? I did read in one of the forums that they sounded pretty good. Anyway, I'm just reporting on what's out there in the market.
                              Sorry noob here but will you explain the difference with them? i think porteds go lower but there not as "Clean" or "tight" as a sealed... I thought that sealed was better for music and ported for movies... I know passive vs active subs but I had no clue about a horn woofer? I know klipsh uses horn tweeters but thats about it...

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Aus10
                                Sorry noob here but will you explain the difference with them? i think porteds go lower but there not as "Clean" or "tight" as a sealed... I thought that sealed was better for music and ported for movies... I know passive vs active subs but I had no clue about a horn woofer? I know klipsh uses horn tweeters but thats about it...
                                No worries Aus10. I'm also a noob. Here's an article from Wiki that I read regarding the different designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_enclosure I think the THT Tuba sub's design is technically a Transmission Line Design? I could be wrong though and someone here can provide more insight.

                                I also read that a sealed sub will sound better in a sealed room (a ported sub may sound boomy). However, a ported sub may be a better option to a room that is open (to a kitchen, formal dining room, etc.). So the room plays a role as well.

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