Poll: What do we want next?

[gtpsuper24]

Is there any talk on some rear speakers?

Yep, A7 Compact effects/surround.

[gtpsuper24]

Wow that will be a monster of sub. I take it as it will be a single 12" with dual radiators? Or are we talking 3 powered drivers plus the radiators? Thats the kind of price and performance that will gain alot of attention.

[ryansboston]

Accepting these categories (and abridging them for clarity) I'd respond like this:

• Budget $300 and under. Certainly the easiest to bring to market, and with our history with the Acculine ASub plus our abilities with Arx for the money, all but guaranteed to excel in-category. Such an Arx product also faces stiffest competition here, but if we could break into SplitGap for under, say, $400? Intriguing, to say the least.
• High value, decent performance ~$550. Probably of least interest initially, but could form the meat of a broader line of Arx subs in time. I say of the least initial interest because real sonic differentiation here is tough. SplitGap really helps, but I want to do something much different than the all the usual just-loud black boxes. But something to talk about and I solicit your opinions.
• High value, high performance ~$1,000. At least as intriguing as the budget class because here we can really start to do interesting things.

Jon, although the budget class may be easiest to bring to market, I would strongly advise against going that route for your first sub offering. I think you guys will be much better off starting with either the "High value, decent performance" or High value, high performance" category offering, or something in between. This way, you will generate a lot of interest, and the market will already know your strong reputation and be much more receptive to a budget-minded sub introduction at a later point...
Otherwise you have a high risk of getting labeled as a budget/value sub maker and will have a steep curve to overcome when you decide to offer a higher performing sub.

[ryansboston]

Wow that will be a monster of sub. I take it as it will be a single 12" with dual radiators? Or are we talking 3 powered drivers plus the radiators? Thats the kind of price and performance that will gain alot of attention.

Agreed. That sub does look ridiculous on paper. I believe Jon did say triple 12" drivers.. but damn, I don't know if I am reading that graph right.. ability to hit 86db at 10Hz?!! Woah... what?

[Chane M&C]

Wow that will be a monster of sub. I take it as it will be a single 12" with dual radiators? Or are we talking 3 powered drivers plus the radiators? Thats the kind of price and performance that will gain alot of attention.

Yes, a massive 12" active driver using SplitGap driven by 1,000 watts with a pair of 12" PRs to tune the system. To approve this model we need to study the field at $1,000, which is well above the fray in the middle hundreds.

[Chane M&C]

Jon, although the budget class may be easiest to bring to market, I would strongly advise against going that route for your first sub offering. I think you guys will be much better off starting with either the "High value, decent performance" or High value, high performance" category offering, or something in between. This way, you will generate a lot of interest, and the market will already know your strong reputation and be much more receptive to a budget-minded sub introduction at a later point...
Otherwise you have a high risk of getting labeled as a budget/value sub maker and will have a steep curve to overcome when you decide to offer a higher performing sub.

Understood. The original Acculine ASub was a big winner and some of you are voting that we duplicate it, although in an improved form. I see an Arx ASub10 as the companion to the A1-A3, which if we're going to offer Arx subs, is a necessary category. I think it all depends on whether Split Gap can be done at this level...

[Chane M&C]

I don't know if I am reading that graph right.. ability to hit 86db at 10Hz?!! Woah... what?

Yes, and without room gain factored in.

[gtpsuper24]

With the amount of bass those 5.25" Splitgaps put out I can't imagine a 12" splitgap, just crazy.

[ryansboston]

Yes, a massive 12" active driver using SplitGap driven by 1,000 watts with a pair of 12" PRs to tune the system. To approve this model we need to study the field at $1,000, which is well above the fray in the middle hundreds.

IMO, the field at $1,000 plus/minus a couple hundred is currently dominated by HSU VTF-15H, followed by (In no particular order) Rythmik FV15, Epik Empire, variations of Chase subs with 18-inch driver(s), SVS SB 13-Plus, and SVS PB-12NSD. So, mostly subs with larger/ much larger driver(s)..

As gtp mentioned, when the VTF-15H bassheads at AVSForum talked it up and it was the must-have new sub... It is recommended VERY often on those forums.

Anyways, on paper it would seem like this new Arx Super-sub would blow all these away in performance.. if it can perform that well in real life, and:
-there is decent WAF, (and it seems like there would be in terms of size compared to the rest of these subs)
-good build quality,
-very good "accuracy"
-very good "musical" ability
-no big flaws (ie. majority of people experiencing "humming" issues, major clipping, chuffing noises, etc.)
I would think you'd be getting a whole lot of orders sooner than you think.

If you were able to really up the Aesthetics/WAF factor and build quality, offer various high-quality veneers at a premium, and market this the right way, you could even find yourself in competition with the "Kings" I mentioned- JR Captivator, Seaton SubM HP.. WOW... again, that would be making dreams come true for people..

Another random thought- Having seen Buford's videos of excursion on the Arx split-gap 5.25 woofers... I can only imagine what the excursion on 12" would be.. that's gotta be a huge WOW factor. Also imagine you will need some very serious, high quality bracing...

[gtpsuper24]

I think the choice of veneers is a good idea, as long as it doesn't slow the launch of new models or cause back orders and other delays. Another pvc veneer color wouldn't be too hard to do, but something like piano glosses or "real wood" options would take quite awhile to get perfected, not to mention added cost.

[Chane M&C]

IMO, the field at $1,000 plus/minus a couple hundred is currently dominated by HSU VTF-15H, followed by (In no particular order) Rythmik FV15, Epik Empire, variations of Chase subs with 18-inch driver(s), SVS SB 13-Plus, and SVS PB-12NSD. So, mostly subs with larger/ much larger driver(s).. [emphasis Jon]

Anyways, on paper it would seem like this new Arx Super-sub would blow all these away in performance.. if it can perform that well in real life, and:
-there is decent WAF, (and it seems like there would be in terms of size compared to the rest of these subs)
-good build quality,
-very good "accuracy"
-very good "musical" ability
-no big flaws (ie. majority of people experiencing "humming" issues, major clipping, chuffing noises, etc.)
I would think you'd be getting a whole lot of orders sooner than you think.

If you were able to really up the Aesthetics/WAF factor and build quality, offer various high-quality veneers at a premium, and market this the right way, you could even find yourself in competition with the "Kings" I mentioned- JR Captivator, Seaton SubM HP.. WOW... again, that would be making dreams come true for people..

Another random thought- Having seen Buford's videos of excursion on the Arx split-gap 5.25 woofers... I can only imagine what the excursion on 12" would be.. that's gotta be a huge WOW factor. Also imagine you will need some very serious, high quality bracing...

I'm with you on all of this. Driver diameter sets a lot of important parameters, and a philosophical decision lies there. Arx can go to either SplitGap or to lots of cone area to get high volume displacement, with SplitGap being the Arx method so far. But the alternative is interesting because with relatively few exceptions its missing in the marketplace...the question is whether we do it for Arx or Dana.

Or, whether we use both in Arx to move in a new direction.

One thing seems sure which is that there's a lack of creativity in the mainstream sub channel. I think we can begin to change that.

[Chane M&C]

I think the choice of veneers is a good idea, as long as it doesn't slow the launch of new models or cause back orders and other delays. Another pvc veneer color wouldn't be too hard to do, but something like piano glosses or "real wood" options would take quite awhile to get perfected, not to mention added cost.

A long time ago we assessed two new Arx finishes, both in PVC. From there we can get into veneers and solid bamboo for higher end models, or if the demand proves out, for the entire range. This is no small thing because the stocking requirements become significant. Don't hold me to it but these are possibilities for the future.

[Skrrrg]

Jon, solid bamboo is interesting on so many fronts. I'm currently in the process of putting in a bamboo floor, the hardness and density characteristics are nearly off the charts. Cabinets made out of this stuff would be beautiful to look at and environmentally friendly.

[Chane M&C]

Jon, solid bamboo is interesting on so many fronts. I'm currently in the process of putting in a bamboo floor, the hardness and density characteristics are nearly off the charts. Cabinets made out of this stuff would be beautiful to look at and environmentally friendly.

Excellent; Arx's maker already uses it in speaker product.

We've got a couple of bamboo in the yard: A big clumping type in the back and a smaller, finer stand in the front. The big shoots in the back grow about a foot a day - phenomenal stuff and as you noted, hard as nails. The guy we bought it from says it's just giant grass and to water and fertilize it like grass. A friend says that as it gets really established it grows so fast that, as she put it, we'll have to do battle...

[newspeakers]

I’ve been researching subs lately and here are my thoughts on the subject. However, keep in mind that I do not own a sub so I don’t know what I’m talking about, but I never let that stop me.

The key to success for an ID dealer is to create a buzz on the internet. It’s been my experience that to do that, you need exceptional quality, then value. A great price for a mediocre product is held in low esteem. The brands that have come out of nowhere to establish themselves all have a reputation first for quality. I’m thinking of NAD, NHT, HSU and Outlaw, among others.

I agree with others that there are three tiers to the sub market. If you want to get into the $300-400 market, don’t build a “budget” sub, but a quality sub for small rooms and lower output levels. The best examples in this range are the Outlaw M8, the HSU STF-2 and similar VTF-1, and possibly the Energy 10.3. If you can beat these for quality and price you’ll have a market.

The $500-700 market is pretty crowded. You would really have to shine quality-wise to compete here. I can’t really comment about this segment.

Then there are the bassheads who want the lowest bass at the highest SPL. I don’t understand these people, but there seems to be a lot of them. They want quality at almost any price. If you want to compete here, I think you can skip the $1000 level and go to $1200 and blow everyone away. I suspect that this would be the best way to establish yourself in the sub market. Start at the high end and become known as the best at any price.

All that being said, I personally think the ARX line would be better served if you completed the line with surround speakers first. I’ll put that in a separate post so this one doesn’t get too unwieldy.